Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Ray S on 16 Oct 2019, 10:21
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BRe 047 'Whimbrel's' mooring is at Redclyffe Yacht Club which is on the River Frome nearly as far west in Poole Harbour as you can get with a mast up. It is 8nm to the harbour entrance but a typical sail for us requires us to motor up the Frome for the first 2nm with a 4knot speed limit, before entering the Wareham Channel where we get our sails up - and of course similar on return. This is all quiet ANOB nature area and a lovely space to traverse – preferably - in peace! Our Mariner 6 packs masses of energy – our 12 litre tank lasts us the whole season and it has been 100% reliable over four years. But its noise in the cockpit and the clunky starting process mars full enjoyment – is it time to go electric?
I checked out the Southampton Boat Show and Nestaway’s stand for the latest news. It was confirmed that the ePropulsion Spirit XS with 1018W battery was now available in an extra short shaft version and according to my interpretation of the drawings would fit my BRe. This XS version is 100mm shorter than the standard short shaft. Might the Spirit do the job? These types of motors are now well used in sports boats of similar size and weight such as the RS21 to get to their racing areas and back and our motor requirements would be somewhat similar. At the show the new Torqueedo 1103, similarly with a direct drive motor and somewhat comparable range and performance to the Spirit was demonstrated but unfortunately was not available in an extra short shaft version which I thought would be needed.
Does it fit?
Ian Thomson of Nestaway Boats offered to bring a motor for testing at Redclyffe - but at short notice we had a two hour window. Ian arrived at the pontoon and the first thing was to get 26kg of lumbago inducing Mariner 6 out onto its trolley. “Arrgh!” I’d forgotten it was screwed on for security with a hex bolt. OK - tool kit out of the cabin and sorted, Mariner whipped out. Ian dropped the Spirit in; but my worst fears were realised; it was too tight all round under the tiller and it wouldn’t tilt sufficiently out of the lamellae! Then I remembered the factory fitted wedge which was behind the engine mounting to make the Mariner fit. Tool kit out again and I hoped the wedge wasn’t glued in – luckily just two screws. Ian dropped the engine in again and this time it fitted perfectly! About 100mm clearance all round under the tiller and the engine tilted perfectly above the lamellae. When the motor is not running the propeller is free to spin which would be handy when sailing with the motor down but when it is up it could rotate a bit and interfere with the back of the tiller assembly. However, there is plenty of room with the propeller horizontal and what would be needed would be some sort of membrane or shelf beneath the tiller to keep them separate. There are little ledges either side of the engine bay on the BRe which seem to be about the right height to support such a shelf.
The final thing I wanted to check was the distance under the hull to the top of the propeller envelope. Ian obliged by feeling under the lamellae and confirmed a roughly 100mm separation – perfect. As for the lamellae the prop seemed to go up and down through them without fuss and more easily than with the three bladed Mariner. Ian then sat back in the cockpit and said “OK all yours, where are we going?” It was glorious day and we had one hour and twenty minutes left of Ian’s time to enjoy the motor. My plan was to go out to the start of the Wareham Channel as we would normally do under engine and then return to Ridge Wharf so that we could get Whimbrel out later – about 2nm out and 1.5nm back. I didn’t tell Ian that the last ten minutes of this time would be spent yomping the engine from Ridge Wharf back to Ian’s car at Redclyffe. So in practice we had 1 hour to cover 3.5 nm – should be easy!
Setting off
A small twist of the throttle got us going – spooky – no gears – no noise! (Our Mariner has been 100% reliable starting, but what a performance – worst case was about 30 pulls of the cord in Falmouth once. Starting has been getting better as we get to understand each other - this year more often than not it starts first time and then my crew and I have a laugh! But it shouldn’t be like this in the 21st century should it? What no electric start? Manual choke? You’re joking!) So yes, moving off with the Spirit is truly spooky and truly wonderful! Anyway - we ambled up river to find a gap in the moorings to turn and I put both tillers right over. I was immediately impressed that with no drag from a fuel pipe we could spin the motor much further round than the Mariner making for a nice tight turn. It was high tide and we ventured down river at half throttle giving us 4knots very slightly assisted by a bit of flow from recent rains. My crew was ecstatic – “listen we can hear the birds!” The engine noise she likened to the level of a sewing machine - not at all intrusive, no gear box whine from the direct drive motor! “There is something missing” my crew exclaimed – no vibration – no rattling locker catches!” “Something else missing too – no petrol aroma, no carbon monoxide, just the sea air.” After 35 minutes we were at the Wareham Channel and well into the area that sails would normally go up so we turned back - we had 25 minutes to get back to Ridge. It was evident that the tide was now running out quite strongly so this would be a realistic test. Normally we would be two up – not three – and we would still have jib and mizzen up at this point on our return. Our water ballast was in. Without sail assistance we upped the throttle a bit – maybe three quarters and we got back to Ridge on time – an overall average of 3.5 knots which compares exactly with the speed we normally run the Mariner in the river.
Battery Range
Back in Ridge we had to get 9kgs of battery and 10kgs of motor back to Redclyffe at a fast walking pace, this to test the portability of the unit as compared with a monolithic 26kg lump!
We’d used up about half the battery giving us a realistic range of 7nm at our speeds. Flat out would give a range of 5.5nm but just for an hour. A time display lets you know the remaining battery duration and of course this varies as throttle settings change. When sailing in Poole Harbour environs once our sails are up we always take routings which avoid narrow windward channels requiring the engine, but I can well imagine with the Spirit which is so quiet and easy to use we would use it to freely get up to such channels and anchorages. This will eat up more into our battery capacity and we also have to allow for an early use of the motor on the return leg up the Wareham Channel if the weather turns adverse. To confidently eat into the full capacity of the battery I would envisage taking a spare 1018W battery on board as a backup and alternate their use. Charging times for the batteries is five hours but there is a fast charging option of 2.5 hours, which would be handy if stopping at a pub at lunchtime!
Costs
The Epropulsion Spririt is about £1500 and a second battery £900 – so £2400 for my application. Sounds a lot, but in proportion to the price and value of the boat – maybe 10% - 12% - seems quite reasonable given the level of refinement you get. Small outboards might seem cheap, but to me they are correspondingly noisy, dirty and clunky to start – especially when you’re up a narrow shallow channel with no sea room, and drifting fast towards the lee side. We’ll report how we get on in 2020!
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Thanks for that detailed and encouraging report, Ray. I'll be very interested to hear how you get on. I strongly resist the idea that I'm getting too old to row the odd couple of miles when necessary, but I hope to go on sailing when rowing becomes a bit less fun. Also, one of the few times I've definitively thought an outboard would be kinda handy was rowing up those winding loops of the Frome up to Wareham, cricking my neck every half dozen strokes to avoid all those moored boats. And your crew is right - that stretch of river has magical not-to-be-disturbed-by noise wildlife.
I don't think I've caught sight of you yet in Poole Harbour. I'm small, green-and-cream, white junk-rigged sail (fairly distinctive), coming in through Sandbanks. I made it to Wareham - once! (see Library).
All the best.
Michael
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You get the impression that ePropulsion are better at responding to customer demands than Torqeedo. They took the Torqeedo Travel and designed away a lot of the complaints about it:
Terrible intrusively whiny gearbox (ePropulsion got rid of the gearbox altogether by using direct drive)
Not enough battery range (their battery started out much larger than the Torqeedo one)
Battery sinks if dropped overboard (their battery floats)
Flimsy plastic skeg and several other parts (they have a metal skeg and their motor is generally more robust looking)
Two cables with dodgy connections into the battery (ePropulsion only have one)
Torqeedo's latest version of the Travel (the 1103CS) addresses many of these issues but probably only after looking at what ePropulsion was already offering.
And now ePropulsion have come up with a shaft length that is similar to the standard shaft length of most small outboards. I remember being unimpressed when I asked a Torqeedo person several years ago why their so-called standard shaft was so much longer than everyone else's. Part of the answer was that it was because the prop blades were longer than normal for efficiency purposes. Fair enough but the rest of the additional length? Well it is what it is and has remained so, necessitating complicated modifications either to our boats or to the motor itself so that it can be tilted out of the water within our BR outboard wells.
If I wasn't already a disgruntled owner of one of the older Torqeedo's, I'd definitely look at the ePropulsion offering. Maybe give it a year or two so that they can beef up the battery even more.
By the way, if you want to banish rudder uphaul/downhaul snagging misery, I've found that the modification in the attached photo works quite well in keeping the string out of harm's way.
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Michael,
We'll look out for you next season off Brownsea Castle!
Graham,
Thanks for the point about the rudder uphaul/downhauls. They sometimes snag on the Mariner filler cap when tacking! Nice little job for the winter to apply your fix.
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Interesting. I bought the XS version for my BR in August having got fed up with the noise, smell and unreliability of my 4 stroke Yamaha. The electric motor is so quiet, smooth and a piece of cake to operate; twist the handle one way and go forward, twist the other and reverse with no waiting for revs to drop then delay operating a lever. You need to watch for a few things. I have found like others that the cable can detach leaving you suddenly struggling to refit. Also the 'kill cord', which is held in place by magnetic action, can be dislodged also leading to sudden loss of power. Neither is a disaster if you realise what's happened but it's not always easy to see that the cable is not seating correctly. You need to be careful when brushing across the top of the motor.
I am apprehensive about the range but as I make a point of sailing on and off the mooring whenever possible it has not been a problem to date. However next season will be the time to test the range when calm periods out in the Blackwater might require longer use of the motor. The tide is rather strong out of my creek on springs so I need to take care to ensure plenty of charge is left for the return trip. A spare battery is the answer but they're rather pricey and I am reluctant to splash out at the moment and I know one other eprop owner who manages substantial journies on the Deben rather well. I would be interested to hear the experience of others on this. Nestaway are an excellent source of information and help. You can register for updates from the manufacturer which I get via Facebook.
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Nestaway in the UK sell both Torqeedo and ePropulsion motors and have an interesting comparison of the two here https://nestawayboats.com/shop/e-propulsion-spirit-1kw-electric-outboard/
I like the idea of the remote wireless throttle on the ePropulsion. I usually only use the boat tiller for steering under power, with my motor locked in the straight ahead position. In such circumstances having to have a second and less than robust tiller/throttle on the Torqeedo isn’t ideal. They do make a remote throttle but it’s wired.
I’m not sure that the ePropulsion remote throttle version (photo below) is available in the UK yet. Unlike with the Torqeedo, having the eProp remote rules out also having the tiller/throttle and it comes with what for me would be unnecessary remote steering paraphernalia.
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Graham,
Like you, I prefer to use the main rudder for steering under engine. On my one hour test I found that the epropulsion stayed in the straight ahead position even when not locked, which is rather handy. I occasionally have to do a tight turn in the river by turning the engine in addition to the tiller and it is great not to have to worry about unlocking the engine steering.
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£900 for a spare battery!
And it will easily fit in a small holdall, I guess?
Do they engineer-in any way to secure it, say if it was left on charge, unattended?
Rather like they do with laptops, for example.
With the Torqueedo I borrowed last year, this was one "stopper" for using the motor on a coastal cruise. Boat was on a swing mooring, mid river.
No way to Securely leave a battery on charge, even in the yacht club overnight; we felt particularly vulnerable as there was a big event/regatta on, with many unknown/unidentified visitors about the place.
My new Honda 5 was the price of this spare battery, I worry about securing that lump to the boat. Although far less portable, they do disappear, even here in "sunny Cornwall".
I had a 11ft zodiac inflatable "borrowed" a few years back, although it was eventually recovered; inflatables are perhaps similarly high value, relatively portable items?
Any thoughts?
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Must admit I’m rather attracted to this outboard especially as the new shorter shaft will fit in the outboard well of my BR20. I currently use a Minn Kota for reservoir outings and a Mariner 4 HP for the sea, The Minn Kota with a 18 ah battery on Rutland is normally only used to motor up the creek to the pontoon however on some occasions where the wind has dropped and my “other half” is getting cold a little more oomph and a speedier return to the pontoon would be beneficial to getting her to agree to more winter sailing.
With a range of around 7nm at half speed this would be adequate for my occasional trips to the coast as well. I could consider a spare battery for longer voyages.
My reasons for change are
Less stress on whether the engine starts or doesn’t flood after engine stall.
No petrol on board.
No need to run the engine up at home in a bucket periodically.
None or reduced service charges
My reasons not to change
Range anxiety
Does anyone know how the engine copes with propellor jam from weeds or rope tangle, the Minn Kota blows the inline battery fuse. Does this unit have a trip or fuse
Peter C
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If you live somewhere sunny, the ePropulsion solar charger kit for the battery would be tempting. Twice the capacity of the Torqeedo version and about 25% cheaper. Even in the sunniest climes, the ePropulsion would take a minimum of a whole day to fully charge.
I noticed in the manual that ePropulsion mentioned the suitability of a propeller with a lower pitch for slower and heavier boats (ie not lightweight planing inflatables) - like the Saildrive propeller on gas guzzler outboards. No sign of it being available yet but it would make sense if they made one.
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Peter, the Spirit has two safety devices. The first is a cut-out if an obstruction causes any strain to the motor. The second is a setting whereby the leg can tilt up if it hits a grounding obstruction.
I changed to electric for the reasons you outline. The easy of operation, silence, lack of smell, lack of spillage when filling on board, easier transportation as the battery detaches, easier maintenance (i.e. negligible). Like you I do not like the risk of a motor not starting when needed or suddenly stopping due to some fuel block (it usually happens when you really need power and keeping fuel and lines completely free of grains of mud or sand is very hard and there is the ever present problem of gumming if fuel is left more than 2 months; I have had heart stopping moments in Falmouth Harbour as well as the muddy creeks of the Blackwater).
The solar charger is not a practical on board solution. If you sail between places with access to a 3 pin socket then you are OK. I will consider a spare battery next year which will sort any anxiety on the range issue.
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Thanks Jod for the information i'm going to seriously consider parting with my Mariner 4 HP and Minn Kota and buying the Spirit XS. Just got back from collecting new BR20 from Cardigan yesterday so my "Boating Allowance" is a little extended at the moment but in the new year i think.
Please keep us all updated on your experiences with this kit.
Peter C
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Is it possible to have the battery elsewhere in the boat, other than riding on the outboard itself? Do ePropulsion supply some sort of kit for this, or would it be something DIY? Presumably quite a lot of amps involved: I brushed up on Ohm's Law a few years ago, and have forgotten it all - again!!
Michael
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Michael,
There’s this cable, which gives you an extra two metres https://www.epropulsion.com/product-page/spirit-extension-power-cable. You’d probably have to order it specially in the UK.
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Extension cable is available and in stock when I ordered my motor.
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Hallo everybody, I'm looking for photos or a film of the EPROPULSION flipped up. The engine interests me very much for my
BRE ( well done )
Thomas ( Düsseldorf )
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There is another questions. Which accessories are needed to mount the EPROPULSION xs in the BRE?
Thomas ( BRE 084 "well done" Düsseldorf )
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Hi Thomas,
When we did our test of the Epropulsion XS we found no need for any accessories - the engine just mounted onto the standard engine mounting pad. But it must be the extra short shaft version XS.
Ray
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Thank's, can the e Propulsion be mounted with the battery? Can the motor be pulled up with tiller?
Did you mount the xs with tiller?
Thomas
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Hi Thomas,
The eProp XS is in two parts: The first part is the electric motor (below waterline!) in the nascelle directly in front of the propellor together with the upright shaft and tiller assembly. See image below of the eProp with battery removed.
The second part is the removable battery housing which is where a petrol engine would normally be. See second picture below.
The tiller section swivels up and down - the down position makes the unit very compact for storage in a locker or bag.
At the back of the battery housing is a large handle for easy carrying. A security chain can be passed through the handle if the battery is being charged in a public area and of course the battery can also be put in a bag while charging to disguise its presence. Eprop have their own storage bags at a cost.
The battery handle is also used to tilt the motor into the up position.
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....Thanks! Can the BRE be driven with the battery installed? The battery handle is needed to tilt the motor in the up position.
When the motor is in the up position , where is the tiller from the engine? Do you have pictures from the e Propulsion xs in up position? So I can order the e Propulsion xs with battery and tiller and operate in the boat?
Best regards Thomas
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Thomas,
I think you mean can the BRe be 'sailed' with the battery in position? Once the battery is installed the motor is just like a regular petrol outboard - you can sail whether the propellor is down or whether the propellor is up out of the water.
So if the propellor is down it will free-wheel allowing you to sail - although I was told you shouldn't go more than 6 knots like this! If you're trying to go this fast I doubt you'd want the propellor down anyway! Somebody - was it on this forum - said that sailing with the prop down is like flying with the undercarriage down!
If the engine is pulled up - most conveniently by the battery handle, you then tilt the engine sideways just like you would a Mariner so that the battery housing is well clear of the main tiller. The eProps tiller swivels up and down so that it is out of the way. Then you can go sailing in the normal way. No need to remove the battery!
I don't have photos or videos with the eProp in the up/sailing position - the above is only from my experience of a test session. I'll be purchasing mine early next season to maximise the two year warranty.
Ray S BRe 047 "Whimbrel"
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Thank you Ray! Then I'll look for an EPROPULSION XS with tiller.
Thomas BRE 084
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I see that the ePropulsion Spirit in now available with a 1,276Wh battery - 25% larger than their previous standard battery and with 39% more capacity than the largest Torqeedo equivalent. Driving a BR20 flat out in calm conditions, the new battery should give a range of around 7 nautical miles and at 4 knots, around 11nm. Yet another step in the right direction by ePropulsion, speaking as a somewhat disillusioned Torqeedo owner.
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Hello Graham, have you seen the EPROPULSION with 1.276 Wh battery also in XS version?
Thomas
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Hi Thomas,
Nestaway in the UK have that version on their price list for £1,600. See https://nestawayboats.com/shop/e-propulsion-spirit-1kw-electric-outboard/
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We now have our Epropulsion Spirit XS but now its the XS PLUS with 25% more battery capacity - i.e. 1276W/h. I have to say it is a great match for the BRe. Finally an engine which fully matches the versatility of the boat! I have put full details of our experience so far in an article in the library called POWER ON DEMAND.
RayS BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
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Excellent article Ray, thank you. If anybody is having trouble finding it, it's here https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=2203.
Just in case I win the lottery, does anyone know if the measurements of the BR20 outboard well, transom, tiller height etc are identical to those of the BRe? It would mean that the Spirit would fit snugly in the BR20 in exactly the same way. Then, lottery permitting, it would be goodbye Torqeedo.
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Thanks Graham,
Had a second day out yesterday with the Eprop - hot sunshine and winds 0 - force 4 up and down.
There might be a bit more twiddling with the Eprop's 'fit' as with the prop up out of the water and the tip of the tiller throttle control just in the drainage runnel on the BRe's floor you cant rotate the engine sideways out of the way. You have to do the rotation while the engine is coming up which isn't so convenient. So I think I just need to raise the height of the engine on the mount by inserting a small 2cm thick block of wood. Another solution might be a slight wedge on the engine mount and a possible adjustment of the prop shaft angle if needed. If the rain stops I might get out on the mooring and have a fiddle.
Speaking of moorings, yesterday I noticed that the stern and rudder cheeks were well out of the water, presumably because with battery off I had about 16kgs less weight in the back than I would have had with the Mariner. (Water ballast out). This might help with self-draining on a mooring?
Favourable winds and tides yesterday but tackled the South Deep Channel in Poole harbour to windward under sail which we've never done before and the River Frome return under sail too, just with the odd nudges of 50-100w or so power. All in all we came back with 80% battery reserves after our day trip, so very good result.
Ray S BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
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To finalise the fit of the Eprop after a couple of trials - I put a 20mm high x 10mm thick wedge which tapered down to 3mm or so behind the engine mount with the engine clamped around this. When the prop is brought out of the water to its 75 deg position the tiller arm has to come up to clear the cockpit floor. The tiller arm can lift by 38 degrees but that isn't quite enough to clear the floor and allow rotation of the arm into the fender bay. The small wedge fixes that issue. That leaves the prop shaft pointing slightly forward and not able to steer round to 90 degrees because it is too near the front of the engine well cut-out. This is fixed by adjusting the prop-shaft angle back one notch - there are 4 positions - the first notch moves the shaft back 7 degrees to compensate for the wedge.
Now the engine is a snug fit and can be steered plus and minus 90 degrees and the prop shaft can be raised up in the straight ahead position to allow the prop through the floor and then rotated sideways out of the way with the twist grip control located in a fender bay. Got there in the end.
I'll take some more pics and add an addendum to the library feature.
Ray S BRe Whimbrel 047
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The EPropulsion propeller is plastic, large, two-blade, and brittle. Mine got frayed and damaged just from being brought up and down through the well-calming lamellae a few times.
I asked the distributor for a smaller three-blade prop, or a metal one, not available.
C.
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... and to add some negatives, big ones:
1. The two-blade propeller is 40mm too long / wide for the width of the well bottom cutout. It regularly jams being pulled back up through the lamellae. Only solution is to cut 20 mm off both propeller tips, or to make fit the three-blade propeller of the Tohatsu 3.5.
2. When using the "Short" EPropulsion on my tender, I regularly collect weeds in the propeller. However, I cannot get at the propeller because it is just too far out from the stern of the dinghy. To de-weed I have to take the engine completely off the transom, de-weed it inside the boat, and then hang it back out.
and 3., the worst: All petrol outboards I ever had, from cheapest to most expensive, had an AUTOMATIC mechanism to allow the engine leg to kick up when hitting an underwater object while going forward. To protect the engine, and boat.
The EPropulsion -at double the price of most peer size petrol engine- hasn't one. The engine leg locks automatically into "Down" when lowered. You can MANUALLY release it, if you don't forget, but if you have released it, and forget to re-lock before going into reverse, the prop kicks up in reverse and hits the lamellae and well bottom cut-out. -- Damage. :-[
-I really love battery-electric, on two- and four wheels, hand- and garden tools, all super. And I also have two EPropulsions (one S and one XS) because I wanted the noiselessness. The range is fine for me, but frankly I think these engines are not yet properly engineered enough to be wholeheartedly recommended to a friend. Better wait with your purchase, IMO they are bound to come up with better practical solutions soon, especially re an automatic leg kick-up mechanism. C.
P.S.
... and one necessary correction: It has been said above in this thread that the propeller is "free to spin" resp. "freewheeling" when left down during sailing.
Well, it may be wheeling or spinning, but certainly is not free in this. There is considerable resistance to spinning freely.
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Some excellent points there. Have you advised eprop manufacturers?
"1. The two-blade propeller is 40mm too long / wide for the width of the well bottom cutout. It regularly jams being pulled back up through the lamellae. Only solution is to cut 20 mm off both propeller tips, or to make fit the three-blade propeller of the Tohatsu 3.5."!
It might seem a daft idea, but I've seen similar remedies to damaged tips on quite large commercial propellers used by professional prop repair specialists. Albeit on 3 & 4 blade props. Balancing issues probably less pronounced? Mods done in situ no post-repair rebalancing.
If yours is already damaged, what have you to loose?
I'd make up some sort of template/jig so as to try to ensure cropping is as equal as possible on both blades.
Is the prop material some sort of nylon/glass loaded plastic? Cut cold.
What are the shaft speeds of the eprop and the tohatsu?
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Alternatively, a hinged transom height extender might solve several problems. See Addendum 1 to this library article for a description https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=820. It was written about the Torqeedo but that motor's issues are the same or worse than the ePropulsion Spirit's. Instead of an eccentric latch holding the transom extender in place at the back, how about one of these and some string? https://www.clamcleat.com/auto-release-racing-mini.html It would hold the transom extender in place when going in reverse but would also release and allow the motor to kick up when the skeg hits something.
The Torqeedo prop is also far too fragile and I regularly lose chips out of the end of my blades, which must surely impact the motor's efficiency.
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I adapted the SOLAS 2.5 - 3.5 shearpin propeller for the EPropulsion. Costs about 25 quid. Works fine. Goes through the lamellae without hindrance each time. C.
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Could you give us an update on this modification when you have had time to try it open water please, i.e. does it still provide the same thrust, does it rev differently, and does it look like it will have the same distance capability. I’m very tempted to part with my Mariner 4hp and MinnKota but the issue with the outboard flaps and propeller damage put me off as I don't want to mess about with mods in that area.
Thanks
Peter C
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As much as I'd like to "go electric" (and having tried so hard with the Torqeedo and failed!), I have to say that I'm still not convinced by the speed/range figures given in this thread that it would work for me (or others) in tidal waters like the Solent.
Often the reason to start the motor is that the tide is against you and the wind is either on the nose or too light to fight against the current, which is often running at 2 knots or more. With an electric outboard that can push the boat at 4 kts you are now down to 2 kts or less. So you need twice the endurance or more. You can't increase the power because that runs the battery down even faster. So, sadly, for use in tidal waters I'll stick with my noisy 6hp Tohatsu with its large external fuel tank rather than go back to using a quiet electric outboard!
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I clocked practically the same values with the adapted 3-blade propeller as with the original 2-blade. 2.9 kn @ 460 W, and 4.1 kn @ 1,000 Watt. Zero noise, no cavitation, and no weeds. Very happy with the result.
However, it should be noted that the Suzuki 2.5 pushes the boat near 5 kn at full throttle. But with awful noise.
C.
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To close,
there are also some minor design differences between the Spirit 1 and the 1 Plus.
For instance, the "Plus" has an additional anode held by a central M5 bolt in the end of the driveshaft.
As I am using this M5 bolt to counter the main M10 nut which mainly holds the new propeller on the shaft, I think my propeller mod would NOT work so easily on a -boltless- older "Spirit 1.0".
BTW the 3-blade propeller I am using costs only GBP 10.50, incl. postage. Cheap enough to play around with. There are no permanent modifications required on the engine or on the boat itself. In particular, the outboarder well flaps need NOT be modified. The original propeller can be put back on anytime.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbekannt-Propeller-Tohatsu-2-5-3-5HP-309-64107-0/dp/B07NWSCW6T/ref=sr_1_32?crid=3P6RJH7YZMFMI&dchild=1&keywords=outboard+propeller&qid=1591719862&sprefix=outboard+propeller%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-32
C.
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Good to know there is the 3 blade solution out there..... I could have saved cutting out the lamelli; although still pleased with the results of that. Hey, what it is to be a pioneer. So now we have a choice of solutions which is a great result.
Llafurio, when you say you use the 5mm bolt to counter the 10mm nut, I suppose you mean that the 5mm acts as a locking bolt?
Yesterday because of no wind in the morning went out some 3nm with slight head current on 25% power, more or less same speed as other yachts coming out; On return we had 2nm on 40% power with stronger head current and head wind breeze and still had 60% battery power at the end. So very pleased with the results I'm getting. No looking back to lawn-mower engine in the cockpit!
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Llafurio, when you say you use the 5mm bolt to counter the 10mm nut, I suppose you mean that the 5mm acts as a locking bolt? ...
No, originally the M5 bolt is only there to hold the newly arrived zinc anode The original blue propeller is held by the M10 self-locking nut.
I first used the M5 bolt to counter (lock) the M10. But now I use a drop of thread locker for the M10, and again use the M5 only to hold the anode. See photo.
I too will not go back to the petrol engines.
C.
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The Epropulsion Spirit 1 Plus XS brings enjoyment to motoring the BR. It's a bit like sailing itself. Noiseless, no vibrations, no smell. You can have a conversation while you go, and you can hear seabirds and seals around you. Also, our dog loves it.
And notable is the trolling capability the engine brings for fishing, which you cannot have from any petrol engine. Ghosting the boat soundlessly along at minimal speeds at 20, 30 or 40 W. Magic.
But it must also be noted: Only when the battery is "full" you get the full power to the propeller, 1,000 W .
From a remaining charge of around 25% the current goes noticeably down, to 850 W and further below. So, towards the end of the cruise you cannot expect the engine to deliver "full throttle" power, it's less. C.
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To close,
there are also some minor design differences between the Spirit 1 and the 1 Plus.
For instance, the "Plus" has an additional anode held by a central M5 bolt in the end of the driveshaft.
As I am using this M5 bolt to counter the main M10 nut which mainly holds the new propeller on the shaft, I think my propeller mod would NOT work so easily on a -boltless- older "Spirit 1.0".
BTW the 3-blade propeller I am using costs only GBP 10.50, incl. postage. Cheap enough to play around with. There are no permanent modifications required on the engine or on the boat itself. In particular, the outboarder well flaps need NOT be modified. The original propeller can be put back on anytime.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbekannt-Propeller-Tohatsu-2-5-3-5HP-309-64107-0/dp/B07NWSCW6T/ref=sr_1_32?crid=3P6RJH7YZMFMI&dchild=1&keywords=outboard+propeller&qid=1591719862&sprefix=outboard+propeller%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-32
C.
Epropulsion Spirit xs Plus 1276w purchased now we have a 3 blade solution, you must have started a run on the Unbekannt 7.4 x 5.7 Boat Propeller as Amazon have none now until early August and i can't find anyone else who stock it, any ideas on a supplier as i would like it for early July
Peter C
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Epropulsion Spirit xs Plus 1276w purchased now we have a 3 blade solution, you must have started a run on the Unbekannt 7.4 x 5.7 Boat Propeller as Amazon have none now until early August and i can't find anyone else who stock it, any ideas on a supplier as i would like it for early July
Peter C
You just keep on looking. What about this offer?: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercury-Mariner-Tohatsu-Propeller-2-2-2-5-3-3-3-5-hp-2-4-stroke-7-4-x-5-7/323742957179?hash=item4b60957e7b:g:~AcAAOSw6IlckCg0
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It looks like ePropulsion and Torqeedo have another potentially viable competitor in the 3HP segment, Haswing https://haswingmotors.co.uk/home/ultima-3/. Like ePropulsion, they're Chinese (part of Ya Tai Electric Appliance Co. in Guangdong) but their origins are in smaller electric trolling motors for anglers. Only available in long shaft at the moment and with a smaller battery capacity than ePropulsion's largest version. Note the three-bladed propeller!
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You need to watch for a few things. I have found like others that the cable can detach leaving you suddenly struggling to refit.
On my new Epropulsion spirit xs the power cable connection has a locking ring on the bottom of the connector to prevent the power cable coming out, is this not the same as your unit.
On another point did you organize a replacement propeller shear pin, I forget when I ordered mine, looked on the home web site and couldn't find it on the options list.
Waiting for the 3 blade replacement propeller to arrive as I’m not prepared to modify the outboard well flaps and having dropped the motor on yesterday I see exactly what others have found on trying to tilt the motor out of the water, I was expecting there to be 2 or 3 locking positions on the tilt so I could lock with the propeller just clear of the flaps for launching and recovery. I’m looking to put the wedge in place behind the clamp to aid full tilt and turn function, I did find it difficult to get the 70 degree lock to activate, not sure if the tiller hitting the deck was preventing the final space to achieve the lock.
Peter C
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Yes, found the same issue activating the 70 deg lock because cockpit floor a bit in in the way. Once the small wedge in place I found the lock self-activates easily. Hope it works for you.
Ray S
BRe 047 Whimbrel
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I adapted the SOLAS 2.5 - 3.5 shearpin propeller for the EPropulsion. Costs about 25 quid. Works fine. Goes through the lamellae without hindrance each time. C.
Ok propeller removed after light persuasion and unscrewing it over the threaded area where the lock nut fits, the shaft looks to be 10 mm wide and the replacement has a 12 mm hole, is this going to be an issue do you think with balance. I have asked Nestaway if they can supply a spare shear pin for the spares box although I’m told the engine stops on propeller impact or fouling so should not be necessary. Do you mention the use of the thread lock because the original locknut has been used and you can’t rely on it locking properly on a second fit.
The new 3 bladed prop should be here in the next 2 days, it should be a simple job to replace, must admit I wasn’t sure if the locking nut would be left or right hand thread and if it would undo without being able to stop the spindle from turning, as it happened the thread is right hand and the nut comes off easily.
Peter C
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Yes, found the same issue activating the 70 deg lock because cockpit floor a bit in in the way. Once the small wedge in place I found the lock self-activates easily. Hope it works for you.
Ray S
BRe 047 Whimbrel
Wedge fitted as prescribed and the tilt and lock work as you promised, many thanks.
Update, with the wedge fitted the battery pack is very close to the rudder stainless assembly and it rubs on the control lines, also because the leg rake is altered it means the prop is further back in the well cutout and harder to get the prop out of the lamelia. So I have removed the wedge and raised the height of the transom under the mounting bracket so the engine sits higher and put the leg rake angle back to original position.
The engine still tilts back far enough to engage the 70 degree tilt. I raise the engine so the prop is just under the lamelia, feel through and guide one of the prop blades through, and guide the prop out as I raise the engine.
Peter C
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... the shaft looks to be 10 mm wide and the replacement has a 12 mm hole, is this going to be an issue do you think with balance. ..Peter C
Yes. You need to center the 12 mm propeller on the 10 mm driveshaft. Something with a 10 mm inner diameter and 12 mm on the outside. Better not take a piece of brass or copper pipe to avoid electrochemical reaction.
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After many years of being rude about my Torqeedo, I have decided to sell both it and my Mariner 6HP and have bought possibly the last ePropulsion Spirit Plus XS in stock in the UK. See the ‘For sale and wanted’ section below.
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I’ve been experimenting with the fit of my Spirit XS in my BR 20. The best solution so far seems to be to leave in some of the mods that I made to shoehorn in my Mariner 6HP (did I mention that it was for sale?), including moving the rudder uphaul and downhaul strings out of the way and putting a wedge at the base of the tiller to raise it up a bit. Then instead of wedges behind the outboard clamp, I’ve put some 8mm rod wrapped in shrink sleeve across the back. Like wedges, this tilts the motor back just enough to allow it to lock up and also keep it amidships with the throttle in the central gulley. I may yet shorten the throttle a bit (it’s only a piece of tubing, after all) and I need a new and sleeker outboard well fairing. Job done.
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Peter, "Update, with the wedge fitted the battery pack is very close to the rudder stainless assembly and it rubs on the control lines, also because the leg rake is altered it means the prop is further back in the well cutout and harder to get the prop out of the lamelia. So I have removed the wedge and raised the height of the transom under the mounting bracket so the engine sits higher and put the leg rake angle back to original position.
The engine still tilts back far enough to engage the 70 degree tilt. I raise the engine so the prop is just under the lamelia, feel through and guide one of the prop blades through, and guide the prop out as I raise the engine."
Maybe you have one of the newer BREs with the modified - more vertical - rudder arrangement as I have plenty of clearance between the battery pack and the stainless assembly on 049. Also ensure power off when getting the prop up!
Ray S
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Ray
Yes my BR20 is a 2019 model with the later rudder fabrication so that must be the difference.
I would still like to change the large 2 bladed prop for a smaller 3 bladed one just to ease getting it back through the lamelia hopefully the one on order from Amazon will fit with minor alterations.
Peter C
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A very informative thread. Thanks to all of you..
I have just escaped California and arrived in Devon, so am at the start of the two week quarantine and here until November. Unfortunately for now I cannot get to my boat which is in a friend's barn.
"Pippin" is a wooden BR20 with the transom modified to the yard's newer design, so it is unlikely that anyone else has quite the same dimensions from the mount to the rear of the well. I am thinking that I will order the engine so long as I can return it if the fit is a huge problem that the collective wisdom here cannot solve!
Currently I have a very heavy but, when wind and tide are against me, satisfyingly powerful 6HP
Yamaha. Really the only time I use it is to punch up the Dart with a foul tide and head wind as the day is closing down on me. The weight on the transom certainly effects sailing performance, and of course there is noise, fuel, etc..
I was lent an early Torqueedo for the Caledonia Raid and the way it broke down was excellent for stowage, but other than that is was nearly useless. Even though we only planned to use it to go into locks, or when we got lazy rowing, to power into a headwind, it ran out of puff very quickly and was very awkward to get in and out of the lamelia. Hence my interest in the Epropulsion (probably with the smaller Torqueedo prop).
Can anyone recommend a good dealer who will take the Epropulsion engine back if the fit turns out to be an insoluble problem?
Does anyone use the same engine on their tender to get to their boat on a mooring? Or is the Eprop shaft that fits the BR 20 too long for a tender? And is it too awkward to switch the engine from tender to BR and back?
Thanks
Mark
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Mark,
I’m relieved to have now escaped the clutches of both Torqeedo and Mariner!
Nestaway look to be a good bet, not that they have any Spirits in stock at the moment. I’m told that more than half the total of the next UK shipment is already pre-sold to customers. They say specifically “If you’re worried about this [shaft length], don’t [be]. We can work out with you which shaft length is most likely to be correct but if you buy one and find out immediately on installation that it’s the wrong size, then for the cost of the postage each way (about £30 in total) and assuming it’s returned to us in new condition, we’ll change it for you. (Subject to availability and cost difference between shaft lengths where applicable.)”
I have the XS version of the Spirit and although I haven’t been out with it yet, reckon that it is also the perfect shaft size for my small 3D inflatable. Allegedly the battery floats. The motor, not so much.
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Now that a few folks are using them, how are you all charging your Eprops? Is the standard "plug into the wall at home" charger working for you?
Are you adding the solar or 12v charger?
Spare batteries?
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Standard charger works fine for me charging at home on the night before a day trip out. So far I've always had between 60% and 80% charge left even though I have to do 3-4 nm under engine. 60% is the default storage condition so it seems sensible to leave the charging until just before needed. Variations in range depend on how much sail assist we get and tidal conditions. Have the solar charger on order but that's more for interest/experimentation at this stage. Would consider a second battery for next season as a backup for longer trips.
Ray S 'Whimbrel'
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Thinking about future cruises far from charging points, I've bought a couple of cheap 60W solar panels which I'll link in parallel and will buy the solar controller specific to the Spirit Plus (higher charging voltage) when it comes out in August. I'm not sure about the spare battery yet but have a couple of large capacity 26V electric bike batteries which I think can be hooked up through the solar controller and can keep the Spirit battery topped up as I'm going along. If that works, I'll have enough wattage (in the absence of sunshine) to get me 20-30nm at less than full speed and probably half that at full speed. That ought to be enough.
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Just to satisfy my curiosity please.
What to the battery safety instructions say about emergency situations, both with the battery energy source, and more generally in case of a fire onboard?
I don't see the advantages of a floating battery, especially in sea water!
Perhaps it's just an unintended "benefit" of high tech?
Afaik, the standard means of dealing with a battery thermal runaway or fire situation would be to dump the battery overboard?
A floating battery, in a marina, might be an exciting event? ????
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Here’s what Torqeedo says:
“Risk of death from lithium fire!
Death or severe physical injuries may result.
■ A lithium fire cannot be extinguished using water; if possible, smother the fire with sand.
■ Use water to cool the battery and to prevent the fire from spreading.
■ Move the battery to a position in which it causes the least amount of dam-
age possible.”
There are also warnings about explosions due to formation of oxyhydrogen gas (after being submerged), fatal electric shocks and even death from electromagnetic radiation (avoid the kill switch if you have a cardiac pacemaker).
The ePropulsion manual doesn’t use the word fire once, as far as I can see. And there are very few risk warnings compared to Torqeedo, presumably because the latter is owned by a large corporation with an impressive legal department. ePropulsion does however have one instruction that we should all take to heart “Do not leave the outboard in the water while the boat speed reach 35km/h.”
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Interesting, thanks!
At any sailing competition/event SI's NOR etc usually stipulate that i need an appropriate fire extinguisher, due to my petrol outboard. Sometimes a fire blanket too?
I think i will have to propose that battery powered craft also carry appropriate means to extinguish?
A couple of large buckets of wet sand ought to do the trick.....
Both to make the batteries safe, and negate any weight reduction advantage! ????
In my current world, work and domestic, (pun intended) the only interaction I have with energy dense batteries is the new range of 36v portable tools. Very impressive capabilities, but he 'elf n safety crowd don't seem to have caught up with the tech yet?
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Simon,
Nestaway tells me that the Eprop battery floats, is entirely submersible and waterproof. If it goes in the water you just rinse with fresh and plug it back in. That is not the case with their remote batteries.
I especially asked as I was interested in carrying an extra battery in our flooding lockers which are part of the righting action for the BR. They said, absolutely no problem.
Mark
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Epropulsion UK called me the other day after I left some feedback on one of their questionnaires regarding a 3 bladed prop option for the Spirit 1. They are not currently looking to develop this option but may look at it in the future along with a new design of engine better suited to the outboard wells used on a number of the Swallow Yacht designs, it should be available mid 2021 (some conversations with SY I believe have taken place on other matters as well)
He is however looking at modifying an existing 3 bladed prop from a 3rd party supplier and has ordered one himself to understand the changes and kit required to possibly offer us a solution. The prop shaft on the Spirit 1 is only 10mm and on the plastic props I have looked at they fit a 12mm shaft, also the shaft is quite short and again the prop I have ordered and tried to modify required the front and back of the prop to be cut down to get sufficient shaft through the prop to attach the locking nut (I am still waiting though for the prop which is suggested on the forum post to arrive from Amazon.
Peter C
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Interesting stuff. Matt has tried to incorporate Torqeedo gear into his boats in the past and been unimpressed with the results. He even said several years ago that if he wasn’t designing boats, he’d be designing electric motors to take on Torqeedo. So the fact that he’s talking to ePropulsion (and that they’re looking at a 3-blade idea) tells you that they’re a lot more responsive to ideas and to their customers.
Torqeedo’s batteries are supposed to be waterproof too, so the oxyhydrogen explosion risk is a puzzle. Unlike ePropulsion’s, they definitely don’t float.
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I’m going to wait for the next version of the Plus battery before deciding whether I need a spare. The speed with which eProp introduce new products probably means that we won’t have to wait too long for an even higher capacity version. I don’t expect that they’ll change again from 48V as it fits with too many other things that they’re doing.
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Here’s a question for those of you proposing to keep your Spirit battery somewhere other than on top of the motor: given the size of the power cable terminations, how are you threading them through any bulkheads that you encounter and how are you sealing the resulting hole(s) up afterwards? I can’t see any possibility of dismantling anything at either end of the power cable to pass it through a smaller diameter bulkhead hole; and the same issue faces any cable gland that you use to seal the hole up afterwards.
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Sorry, I don't mean to keep banging on about it, but..
Never having seen one of these Epropulsion floating batteries, I'm trying to understand how they prevent a dead short across exposed terminals, say when in a locker, or immersed in sea water?
We have had issues with 36v LiIon power tool batteries left out in the rain, never mind floating!
GW. Take it the warning “Do not leave the outboard in the water while the boat speed reach 35km/h.” hasn't been an issue....so far!?!
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Simon,
The battery has close-fitting dust caps on its sockets that may save it from the worst effects of a dunking. However, I'm not volunteering to find out.
Ian at Nestaway has confirmed that the solar controller for the Spirit Plus will arrive in early September. Also, after consulting with the eProp technical bods, he confirmed that I can safely route a charge from my two 26V electric bike batteries through the solar controller. In the absence of sunshine, this will nearly double the eProp's range, saving me from having to fork out another £800 for a spare battery.
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Hi, I have not seen one of these motors. I did find a video where it is used on a tender. So, if there is anyone else out there, like I was, is wondering, what this is all about take a look. As they use the motor, you can see how they handle moving it about on their mother boat. Skip to 3.50 to see the motor. (Not that I am a fan of these videos, the hosts can be tiresome. But I did find it informative to see the motor in action).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi0S6r7T2wE
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For full exposure to eProp’s US marketing department, see this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns6fSqH3xG0. The drone shots show somewhere with beautiful clear water - Florida?
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Thanks for the video references, very helpful.
I see the battery floating, and the battery/motor power cord......with plastic plug/socket. Guess that's the key?
Rather like the Panasonic Tough Book PCs. I recall a LOT of little rubber bungs to achieve the IP rating.
Of course, power tool batteries have nothing similar.
Wouldn't want to try floating the battery without the plug/bung in place, but would like to see the video!
Incidentally, strange little green canoe/dory thing being used for the demo. Especially for a guy with a £2500 ish 3hp outboard, and a £90000 ish Tesla X. ????
Wonder why?
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Incidentally, strange little green canoe/dory thing being used for the demo. Especially for a guy with a £2500 ish 3hp outboard, and a £90000 ish Tesla X. ????
Wonder why?
The Gheenoe is made in Florida and is not cheap. The motor in the UK is £1600.
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With the boat sailing at 4 knots and the outboard leg lowered I powered up the spirit before heading into wind to drop the main, I inadvertently asked it to go into reverse and it must have a protection device built in when the water flow is turning the prop as reverse request ignored. Didn't try it again at slower speed to see if it would activate with slower water flow induced spinning I’m wondering if this would actually be the case when maneuvering the boat in a tidal area and is it something to be aware off.
My modified 3 bladed prop worked a treat, not an easy mod on the plastic prop i purchased but it came good in the end. If anyone interested in what had to be done to get it to fit please ask.
Peter C
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I used my new eProp on Lake Bala on each of the past three days. Compared to my old Torqeedo and my Suzuki 2.5hp from long ago, it’s wonderfully quiet!
I measured the motor’s power consumption with the original blue two-bladed prop and the Plus battery in low wind conditions and came up with the following:
60W = 2kn - 42nm calculated range
220W = 3kn - 17nm calculated range
520W = 4kn - 10nm calculated range
1,000W = 4.7kn - 6nm calculated range
This is with a gaping hole in the outboard well - my old well cover doesn’t fit with the new motor and I’ll have to make a new improved version. I suspect that I will get better figures at the faster speeds once I put a lid on the fairly dramatic well turbulence. It was noticeable that wind on the nose made for significant falls in speed. Going into an F4 dropped full speed (1,000W) by at least a knot.
Using an electric motor in tidal areas is going to need a different approach to when I had my 6hp Mariner and could blast my way through anything. Except over short distances, if there’s headwind, sail. And except over short distances if there’s no wind, plan to motor with the tide rather than against it.
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In a BRe - 2 up with water ballast in, 2 blade prop and no engine well cover in I got very similar results in a 2 way test compensating for wind and tide:
200W = 3.5 kn
300W = 3.7 kn
400W = 3.9 kn
500W = 4.2kn
600W = 4.3kn
800W = 4.4kn
900W = 4.5kn
1000W = 4.6kn
In a more recent test in benign conditions got 4.7kn nudging 4.8kn.
If it wasn't for the external fuel tank the motor actually has a greater range than an o/b with internal tank.
But going above 4 knots (which happens to be the speed limit in my local River Frome) for us would be crazy on the way out but well do-able on the way home most of the time.
As it happens I've never used more than 40% capacity and am actually using less battery now as the motor gives the confidence to sail more in confined places knowing that you can just give a 50W or 100W nudge here and there just to get past awkward corners or tidal gates or skipping from one patch of cats-paws to the next. Its a bit more like some of the Bayraiders getting there oars out from time to time - you can do it without having to bend your elbows to start the 'beast in the back' and make a fearful racket!
The battery adds another tactical element to those of wind and tide and soon it will be interesting to add yet another element - solar. Still haven't received the interface cable though - that's the next fun project!
Ray S
BRe Whimbrel 047
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After three inadvertent selections of reverse on my new Spirit 1 plus I have now reprogrammed the twist grip to the way my brain seems to be set when I want to engage forward. It’s down to years of using 4 HP petrol engines where you twist the grip clockwise to increase revs. On Monday, admittedly in a crosswind and the mizzen caught in one of the main reefing outhaul lines I messed up my first approach to the pontoon (and of course there were on shore witnesses) all down to my training where you use the least amount of power to overcome wind and tide, unfortunately due to asking the engine to go into reverse, with the outboard being so quiet the bow blew of and I had to circle round again.
Peter C
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After three inadvertent selections of reverse on my new Spirit 1 plus I have now reprogrammed the twist grip to the way my brain seems to be set when I want to engage forward.
Peter,
I have similar issues - how do you reprogramme the throttle?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQZhj_jNH7s&fbclid=IwAR0I7nkxmawRefB2oOIW1ib5feUkUiBHFQxIwTQkFjky6cgpE2dcWxiE1n0
Very quick and easy
Peter C
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Thank you Peter for a very complete description of your prop conversion process.
Mark
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+1
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I am happy to report that my new Epropulsion Spirit XS dropped right into my wooden Bayraider 20 with updated transom and fitted like a glove. No modifications necessary, so I consider myself a very lucky man.
The tiller has better clearance than with my old outboard, and if I get really fussy about weight distribution I could take the battery off, add the extension cable, and put the battery in a locker. Although frankly, having got rid of the weight of the old 6hp outboard, the fuel tank and a couple of small top up tanks, I am delighted by the new locker space now available to me for longer camping trips.
I may get around to the conversion of the three bladed prop I bought in anticipation of the problems of with the two bladed pro coming up through the lamellae, but the two bladed seems very manageable so far in my situation.
Going sailing tomorrow on Start Bay, and if I have to motor home up the River Dart, it will be so much quieter!
Thanks for all the shared information that lead to this decision.
Mark, "Pippin"
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The availability of shear pins for the Spirit 1 is problematic it seems at the moment, I enquired with my supplier as soon as I took delivery of my engine for a spare pin only to be told that he doesn't stock them, never been asked for one and that the unit will stop if an obstruction by the prop is met.
I joined the Facebook page for the Epropulsion owners recently and a couple of owners have experienced pin breaks and have posted comments on difficulty with obtaining replacement pins.
One owner has posted that the Torqeedo travel shaft pin is the same size so that may be an option to source. With comments from Epropulsion staff on the Facebook page hopefully this will prompt UK dealers to consider stocking this ridiculously cheap but important spare for their customers.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/epropulsionoutboard/
Peter C
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I wondered a bit about the prop when ordering the Epropulsion XS so I also ordered a spare 2 bladed propellor and this came with the spare shear pin and one or two other bits and pieces which are now in the spares kit in the boat.
Ray
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I’ve just ordered a spare Spirit prop, shear pin included. Nestaway say that they’re not aware of anyone breaking shear pins with the direct drive Spirit or the Torqeedo 1103. However, it was definitely a problem (yet another!) with the geared Torqeedo 1003. The Faversham dealer that Peter and I bought our new motors from uses a Spirit on his club rescue boat. He told me that whenever he has grounded the prop in mud, which around these parts is a common hazard, the motor has simply stopped. Presumably the same happens with the Torqeedo 1103.
Nestaway say that they’re not aware of any three-bladed prop experiments, so if eProp UK are doing any, they’re keeping quiet about it.
I tried to order an eProp power take-off adapter. This allows the 48V Spirit battery to be used as a 12V power source. I’d use it with an air pump to inflate my dinghy and beach rollers. Apparently the adapter doesn’t exist yet and is still on the drawing board - maybe next year.
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Will call the Faversham dealer this morning and ask them to supply a couple of drive pins for the spares box, i also have it now on good authority that the Torqeedo 1003 model drive pins part number 005-00051 3mm x 26mm fit the Spirit 1. I'm still using my modified 3 bladed prop so the original prop is in the spares box along with a 17mm box spanner to swap the prop out.
One issue i'm not sure about how to resolve, if the drive (shear) pin does break how do you undo the shaft nut, the usual way is to hold the prop whilst undoing the nut, if the pin is broken the shaft will just rotate as you try and undo the nut.
Peter C
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One issue i'm not sure about how to resolve, if the drive (shear) pin does break how do you undo the shaft nut, the usual way is to hold the prop whilst undoing the nut, if the pin is broken the shaft will just rotate as you try and undo the nut.
There’s been a discussion (including suggested solutions with varying degrees of risk/ danger attached) on the YBW forum https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/torqueedo-1003s-prop-removal.418476/. This was specifically concerning the Torqeedo 1003 but I think it also applies to more recent models from eProp and Torqeedo.
If the direct drive prop fails to stop on contact with an obstruction and you’re far from help, it may be preferable for the prop to break rather than the shear pin. At least it would then be fairly easy to remove the broken prop without access to Dremels, angle grinders etc.
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The availability of shear pins for the Spirit 1 is problematic it seems at the moment, I enquired with my supplier as soon as I took delivery of my engine for a spare pin only to be told that he doesn't stock them, never been asked for one and that the unit will stop if an obstruction by the prop is met.
I joined the Facebook page for the Epropulsion owners recently and a couple of owners have experienced pin breaks and have posted comments on difficulty with obtaining replacement pins.
One owner has posted that the Torqeedo travel shaft pin is the same size so that may be an option to source. With comments from Epropulsion staff on the Facebook page hopefully this will prompt UK dealers to consider stocking this ridiculously cheap but important spare for their customers.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/epropulsionoutboard/
Peter C
Following an order request to my supplier for two shear pins for my spares box the response back from Epropulsion is that they are not shear pins but drive pins, should the pin break the likelihood is that the prop will be destroyed as well. Drive pins are available when you order a new prop, they are not sold separately from the prop.
As an exercise I have tried to undo the 17mm shaft nut without holding the prop (simulating the pin being broken) and the shaft just spins.
So if Epropulsion are correct the prop and pin will need cutting off and replacing, a suitable tool will need to be available to repair the prop and pin.
The only alternative that has been suggested and shown to work is to power up the motor to provide shaft spinning resistance when undoing the nut, this method obviously has its inherent issues with sockets and ratchets spinning out of control, below is a you tube video showing how to remove a broken shear pin from a Torqeedo Travel motor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdWYiShvpCU
Peter C
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As an exercise I have tried to undo the 17mm shaft nut without holding the prop (simulating the pin being broken) and the shaft just spins.
Peter,
In the video that you posted, the demonstrator seems to suggest that having already removed the shear pin, a spinning shaft could be overcome (at least on a Torqeedo) by using short sharp movements with a socket wrench. Maybe it won’t be a problem with an eProp because the propeller may well break before the drive pin does. We’ll see! I have a spare prop and drive pin on order but hope that I won’t have to use them any time soon.
In less than rigorous scientific conditions yesterday, I motored about 8nm on the Medway with and against the tide and with and against an F3 breeze and ended with about a quarter of a tank left. I was mostly using the motor at a sensible 300W. Being parsimonious with the throttle induces a different state of mind compared to opening up and creating noise and wash with a 6hp Mariner. I had more than enough time to enjoy the scenery and even spotted a pair of Peregrines perched high up on a ledge on one of the covered slipway buildings at Chatham.
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A new shipment has arrived in the UK from ePropulsion and I have now received my Spirit Plus solar controller and spare propeller. I hitched up a 26V lithium ebike battery to the solar controller and confirmed the theory that I could use my two ebike batteries to nearly double the range of my eProp. It will also take a charge from my 12V “house” battery. I’ll try it with my two cheap 60W solar panels, wired in parallel, in the next few days. I can feel my range anxiety reducing already!
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I did 9nm with the eProp yesterday, mostly against the wind but with the ebbing tide. At 400W for around 4kn of progress, I should normally have been left with about a third of a tank by the end. However, I had the battery recharging on the go using the ebike battery and solar controller and ended with slightly under half a tank. At anchor for an hour or so, I swapped the ebike battery for two 60W solar panels, which pushed the eProp battery back to over half charged.
The trip back under sail, against the ebb but with the wind, was much quicker. Overtaking yachts struggling against the ebb was particularly satisfying.
Photos of the wiring and use attached below. The first photo shows charging from the ebike battery while underway. The controller is the light grey box back right. The second photo shows lunch stop recharging with the solar panels. The controller gets quite warm charging from the battery, probably because it is working at least twice as hard as with the panels.
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The table of watts consumption for various cruising speeds was helpful. For comparison, does anyone know what the cruising speed is with a 6 hp outboard at full throttle? ePropulsion also has a 6 hp electric, which is probably overkill for my needs (lakes, so no tides to fight), but I wonder whether the Spirit is undersized.
Just ordered a BRe, so there's lots of decisions to make on how to outfit her...
Thanks,
Eric
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Coincidentally, I had a bit of an "experiment" with my BRe and Honda 6hp over the past couple of days.
Not presenting this as scientific in any way...
Simply put, I found I was hard pushed to break the harbour 6 knot speed limit, even at full throttle and one person onboard. As measured by GPS, in counter directions up and down tide.
As expected, appx half throttle was producing about 4.5 mph, full throttle about 6, max.
Big tides at the moment, and the boat's bottom is not clean.
I would suggest that the above might be indicative of hull speed limitations?
I have a sail drive prop, and it seems plenty of poke left to account for loading and associated increased displacement?
I'd also suggest that the answer to your question is that a reasonable cruising speed is about 4.5/5 knots?
Added.
It would be the noise that would initially limit my speed, followed by the fuel consumption which would likely increase exponentially with speed, and so become an issue at over 5 mph?
I didn't perceive that wake would be a problem in our river, but that may just be that we have been so overrun with thoughtless motorboating "Covidimakers" that large wakes now seem to be normal!
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In my BR20, my old Mariner 6hp with Saildrive prop achieved similar top speeds to Simon, generating quite a lot of noise and a huge wake. Throttling back to something less extreme still saw me pootling along at a respectable and relaxed 5kn.
If you’re mostly on lakes, an electric 6hp would be overkill and do serious damage to your wallet. A 3hp electric ought to be sufficient, as long as you don’t need to get home at hull speed all the time. Tides, adverse wind and short chop all conspire to reduce electric speed over ground. A 6hp petrol outboard will shrug all these off but at the cost of noise, vibration, smell and, if you’re not careful, an unreliable carburettor.
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Yes, a 6Hp Eprop Navy would be lovely (jubbly) to have in a BRe but the cost would be some £4750 in total as the battery is not included in the base price of the motor and the battery weighs in at 32kg too. So how would you take that home to charge?
Conversely the Eprop Spirit battery is only 9kg or so and easy to carry home for charging. Much less unwanted weight in the back of the boat too. I would add easy starting - on instant demand - to Graham's list.
But really the best thing of all is the ability in light weather or in a tight corner while sailing to just give a short 5 or 10 percent power boost to get from one patch of wind to the next or just a bit of impetus if the tide turns against. Wouldn't dream of doing that with the old petrol which spoils the peace and enjoyment of sailing far too much...
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Ray’s mention of easy starting reminds me that if you or your crew are not careful, it’s possible to hit someone in the face when trying to start a petrol outboard. Like me, you probably only ever do it once, after which crew are always instructed to take cover.
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My crew always knows when to take cover from flying elbows - needs no instruction - once was enough!
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Also as you get older outboards get harder to start. Must be the same rule that makes everything heavier each year you pass beyond 60.
I did like my torqueedo for the reasons Ray gives, but in the end I find a 6hp Yamaha more comforting when I'm out in the Bristol Channel. Next thing will be looking for an outboard with electric start....elbows no longer fly fast enough it seems.
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9nm yesterday against both wind (F3-4 apparent) and tide (1kn+), running at just over 400W for slightly less than 3 hours. Ended with around a third of a tank remaining - without charging on the go from the ebike batteries, it would have been almost empty.
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I have converted to the three bladed prop and have not noticed a significant drop in performance and certainly find it far easier to tip up through the outboard well.
So far I have not only had good use out of it on "Pippin" when returning up river in foul wind and tide from Dartmouth, I have also been able to hang it on the back of my recently acquired used 8ft Walker Bay dinghy to get home from my mooring. On Tuesday that was a quarter of a mile upwind in gusting 30 knots with a spring tide against me...that would not have been a pleasant row, and in fact in my old dinghy it would have been a long slog up the riverbank.
On that same day I broke my mizzen mast, and I found that motor sailing upriver at around 200 watts with double reefed main and jib was a breeze.
I used to be a purist, but I can see I may be doing that more often in confined waters, foul tide and strong headwinds as the sun goes below the yardarm!
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Has anyone experienced using an EP Carry https://www.electricpaddle.com/index.html ?
Good reviews at http://ptwatercraft.com/blog/?p=2909
It may not be powerful enough for a laden BR20 or bigger but has apparently been successful on Caledonia Yawls.
The EP Carry is available in the US for $1,600 but I've not seen it the UK.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Matthew,
Here’s another review of the EP, including a video https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/ep-carry/. Are you looking at this for your new self-build?
I couldn’t work out if the box on top of the outboard is just for the electric motor or also includes a reduction gearbox. Possibly the latter, as the video shows that this outboard isn’t particularly quiet. I see that it can be used in both fresh and sea water.
The more competition for Torqeedo the better!
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The availability of shear pins for the Spirit 1 is problematic it seems at the moment, I enquired with my supplier as soon as I took delivery of my engine for a spare pin only to be told that he doesn't stock them, never been asked for one and that the unit will stop if an obstruction by the prop is met.
I joined the Facebook page for the Epropulsion owners recently and a couple of owners have experienced pin breaks and have posted comments on difficulty with obtaining replacement pins.
One owner has posted that the Torqeedo travel shaft pin is the same size so that may be an option to source. With comments from Epropulsion staff on the Facebook page hopefully this will prompt UK dealers to consider stocking this ridiculously cheap but important spare for their customers.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/epropulsionoutboard/
Peter C
Just got around to ordering a couple of “Drive Pins” as Epropulsion call them, they are 3mm x 26 mm part no 005-00051 (Torqeedo 1003 parts) but they fit the Spirit xs plus motors. BHG Marine Ltd £1.16 plus vat and delivery
Peter C
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Epropulsion have announced a new version of the Spirit, the EVO, with hydrogeneration from the propeller. This is claimed to generate a modest 50W at 5 knots (200W at 8 knots). Assuming that you could keep sailing at 5 knots all day, this would nearly fully charge the Plus battery. Details are still a bit sketchy but it looks like Germany will be the first market for distribution.
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What is the cost, in terms of drag?
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I expect that various tests will reveal things like the effects of drag in due course. The EVO isn’t even on eProp’s website yet, so it’s all very new news. Here’s a bit more about it from UK distributor Nestaway https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/epropulsion-spirit-1-evo-hydrogenerator-in-ym.557173/post-7511576. Other interesting new features are a detachable throttle, interchangeable with a remote control.
When I think of the times that I have sailed for hours at hull speed, I doubt that trailing a prop in the water would have made much difference to progress. However, apparently the EVO does not generate power at speeds of less than four knots and under those more marginal circumstances every bit of drag must make a difference.
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There appear to be EVO versions of the larger Navy outboard and Pod drive coming out soon as well. See this from a German eProp distributor https://www.greenboatsolutions.de/en/shop/hersteller/4/ePropulsion.
Postscript: I’ve just stumbled across the eProp 2021 catalogue, which was published yesterday https://issuu.com/epropulsion/docs/epropulsion_catalog_2021.
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Thought I would check charge level status on my Spirit 1 plus at this mid winter point So I pushed the power up button and it failed to initialise, put the battery on charge for 5 minutes and tried again, this time it powered up. The charge bars showed fully charged which is not how I left it three months ago which was 60%, so I put the engine over a water tank and opened the throttle to mid range, a few minutes later the motor stopped with error EO5 (low battery voltage), the charge indicators still showed fully charged. the Battery is now on charge and hopefully will be sorted when finished, will update later. Following an overnight charge the motor ran fine with the charge bars all complete, ran it at full power and the bars decremented as you would expect.
Peter C
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Some lithium batteries go into sleep mode if not used for any length of time, I think to protect their lifespan. It’s all rather anxiety-making when this happens but as Peter has done, a blast on the charger should bring them back to life. They should be coddled inside the house, not left out in a cold shed during the winter. Another thing I have only recently learnt is that fast chargers, whilst more convenient (and quite expensive), reduce the battery’s life cycle - so slow and steady does it.
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The EVO versions of eProp motors have now been officially announced https://www.epropulsion.com/. Buried in the text, I noticed this comment: “The Pod Drive 1.0 is the smallest electric pod motor on the market and ideal for daysailers in the 20-foot range.” I wonder who they have in mind??
UK distributor Nestaway give their own spin (no pun intended) on the new developments, further down the page on this link https://nestawayboats.com/shop/epropulsion-spirit-plus-1kw-electric-outboard/.
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Please can someone with an epropulsion spirit and a BRe let me know what speed you get at 1000w power and 500w power. Many thanks. Toby
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Toby,
See https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1952.msg13679.html#msg13679. And on a BR20, which will be little different https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1952.msg13671.html#msg13671.
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Since we recently bought 'Spark' (from Jeff Curtis, hi Jeff!) without an engine, it's only appropriate that we consider equipping her with an electric outboard ;)
Has anyone looked into fitting the Navy 3.0 to a Bayraider? Its ludicrously expensive... but since we're moving the boat to the tidal Thames, I think we need something with a bit more oomph than the ~3.5hp that the Spirit offers. I'm all for keeping the engine off as much as possible - but we've got two small kids and the reality is that we're usually short on time: so punching against the tide is just going to be something we do sometimes i suppose.
It would be nice not to buy a 6hp petrol engine for all the reasons you've discussed so far!
Do you think I'm right to consider the Spirit underpowered? Since i'll be planning sailing mostly around the tide anyway, perhaps ~3.5hp is enough to get me on and off the trailer?
All suggestions gratefully received.
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It would be nice not to buy a 6hp petrol engine for all the reasons you've discussed so far!
Do you think I'm right to consider the Spirit underpowered? Since i'll be planning sailing mostly around the tide anyway, perhaps ~3.5hp is enough to get me on and off the trailer?
Henry,
I think that with two small children on board and with tides on the Thames being what they are, the Spirit may be underpowered for your purposes. The pursuit of zen-like cruising under electric power, timing your sailing with the tides, may not be compatible with having children who are cold/bored/seasick or whatever else ails them. You may need to get back to base in a hurry and except over short distances, and unless you have a spare battery or two, the Spirit may not get you there fast enough.
I don’t know how electric outboard manufacturers justify their claims of 3hp equivalence but however they dress it up, real world experience says something different. In a straight race against the wind, a BR with a 2.5hp Suzuki should beat a BR with an electric outboard running at 1,000W full speed. I read on another forum that 1hp = 750W, which would suggest that “3hp” electric outboards are only 1.3hp. I don’t think that it’s quite as bad as that but you get the general idea.
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Yes, Graham, that's what I aspire too, the zen like quality of Bayraiding that the electric does nothing to assuage but only augment! After all for millennia sailors and fishermen have been plying all around the world with only wind, tide, oars and sculls relying only on seamanship and sufficient victuals to keep them going. Isn't it a little bit of that escapism we try to emulate when we take our Bayraiders out? Go electric, take some extra mars bars and a Hamlet Cigar! Wait for the tide if necessary.
Ray S BRe Whimbrel 047
Pss. Hush Hush, don't tell anyone - electric motor-sailing an absolutely delight and great for range extending...
Other yachts can't understand how we sail so fast. Did I mention solar panels?
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I read the thread with great interest and decided to go electric for this season with the Spirit Plus XS. Dry fit on my BRe seemed to go ok and managed to tilt up without using a wedge, though took a few goes to perfect the technique and I forsee it could get interesting if it does not go well underway.
Will report back after sea trials, but having an engine that propels both my tender and then the boat looks like a great combination and other than initial range anxiety I'm really looking forward to some quiet sailing.
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Gavin,
Looking forward to your report of sea trials. You decided not to wait for the EVO version of the Spirit?
If you do encounter range anxiety, I strongly recommend the eProp 12V/solar controller https://epropulsion.uk/product/spirit-12v-and-solar-charger/. Not only does it recharge fairly efficiently from solar panel(s) but it will also take a charge from a 12V battery. For example, an old car battery or better still (from a weight point of view) a 12V lithium battery if you already have one. You can use it to recharge while actually using the motor. This is a whole lot cheaper than buying a spare eProp battery and allows you to extend your range by a third or more, depending on the weather and/or how much capacity your 12V battery has.
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I had an interesting chat with Ian at Nestaway boats this week - he suggested that the combination of the BR20's lightweight hull and the EVO mode's inherent hydrodynamic resistance would mean that we'd be mostly be better off without it - we'd lose too much speed for it to be useful; unless it was blowing a hooley, in which case we'd be sailing anyway.
That said, it's kinda weird that they're even offering the option on the Spirit - since if its not suitable for a boat this size then what would it ever be suitable for?
He also talked me out of the Navy/Pod/DIY lifting bracket - it would all end up being too heavy, quite apart from it being way too expensive :D
According to my latest calculations, even a 6hp petrol motor would never free us from thinking about tides and river flow - so I think i'm going to press the button on a Spirit Plus XS and see what happens! With the money i didn't spend on a Navy 3.0 I can buy a porta-potti and a games console for the kids so we can stay out indefinitely...
I think i'm going to follow Graham W's lead on the 12V/solar controller tip - that sounds excellent!
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Thanks for the tip Graham. I did buy the solar charger at the same time as the engine and will report back how I get on at charging the battery using via the cigarette lighter attachment/solar powered battery option on my BRe. Evo did not seem to give the benefits as per Henry's points.
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Initial sea trial complete. Did not seem to need a wedge and found the supplied prop ok, providing you are happy to dip your hand into the water to see it through the gap when raising it. Must confess I did that when moored to a buoy; would probably present more of a challenge underway. It was a blustery F5 with wind against tide so I spent time staring at the range and need more experience to overcome the inevitable anxiety. However, loved the silence and found it easy transferring the engine to my tender. Definitely converted and if it means I have to get used to getting from A-B under power a bit more slowly then it will be a very worthwhile price to pay.
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When your lamellae/venetian blinds in your outboard well need replacing, as they probably will eventually, you could install a wooden cover in their place. Then the long eProp propeller is much easier to get up through the opening as you can actually see what it’s doing under the water. You can also poke it with a stick if you need to. Be very careful fishing around with your hands!
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A question for ePropulsion owners out there. I have a Spirit Plus XS on order, reputedly for delivery in May. This is primarily to use on dinghies but also for my Bay Cruiser 23 where petrol outboards are not permitted. The portable 100W solar panel and charger/controller looks interesting. What would make it even more interesting if it could be connected into my existing solar controller to augment the boats fixed solar panels. I understand from ePropulsion via the supplying dealer that the output voltage from the 100w panel is 18.7 or thereabouts. This would be ideal to feed into my solar controller. What is needed is a socket that matches the output lead from the folding panel. The input socket on the battery may be proprietary which could be a problem. Has anyone any advice or experience in respect of this?
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Two new or nearly new eProp Spirits for sale on eBay from someone in Poole. One of them is definitely the Plus (big battery) model. I think that his price expectations may be unrealistic unless there’s a long waiting list for new ones (which appears not to be the case).
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And another one on eBay from someone in Chichester, at a more sensible price.
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There’s a test of 12 small electric outboards and trolling motors in the latest issue of ‘Yachting Monthly’. Their winner is the eProp Spirit Evo, both for its 40% bigger battery capacity than the equivalent Torqeedo 1103 and for its electric regeneration properties. I question how useful the latter feature is for the likes of us (costing £600 extra) as it generates very little power at 4-5 knots. On a strictly like-for-like basis, the non-Evo version of the Spirit is for me clearly preferable to the Torqeedo 1103, being £350 cheaper, having a 40% greater range and perhaps most important of all, having been designed from the outset to be significantly more robust.
I was talking to someone from Nestaway at the Southampton Boat Show the other day. They see the eProp Evo regeneration feature as being most useful for cruising yachts, allowing them to top up their dinghy motor battery on the go, without eating into the house battery supply or having to find a mains socket at a marina. When eProp finally come out with their long-promised DC-DC converter, the Evo will also be useful for topping up 12V house batteries.
He was careful with his reaction when I compared and contrasted eProp and Torqeedo, as they are agents for both!
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In our lightweight boats I see no real place for the regeneration of the Evo unless you really want to slow down. How often do we want to do that?
In a heavier displacement boat the drag will make less difference.
Personally I consider my boat a sailing vessel that once in a great while needs a little help to get into a marina berth that is too tight for oars, or up a fast flowing tidal river with little room to tack.
I use my Epropulsion Spirit Plus infrequently and I have yet to run it below 25% even after a week of cruising. I do not miss fuel, grease and noise in the boat!
I really value it on the stern of my tender after a tiring day out when it replaces a long row from my mooring to the dock in foul flood tide and an a Easterly!
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Is it a known fact that the small shaft Epropulsion outboards (rather than the extra small) will not work with the BRE outboard well.
I know the xs is the obvious “correct” engine for most but we have a unique use case.
It would be better for us if the tiller came off and throttle was remote this would create a better space for wheel chairs. Thus we would ideally like an evo model that only come in short and above.
I haven’t done much research yet and I thought someone else might be able to save me allot of time if they’ve already looked at options.
Many thanks Chris
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Our experience with eProp is that it isn't necessary to keep raising the outboard into the well - we often leave it down while sailing. It doesn't seem to make much difference speed-wise if the prop is free-spinning while sailing.
We find it helpful in restricted waters to keep it down, so that it is always ready. I would have thought therefore you could take the S option. After all, there are many small cruisers, Shrimpers and things which can only have the outboard in the vertical position.
Try and get a trial or a sale or return if you can, just to test out the concept.
Sounds like a great application you describe.
Ray S
Whimbrel 047
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A recent post on the Epropulsion Facebook page made reference to damaging the Spirit 1 outboard if you leave the prop in the water and allow the prop to free spin whilst under sail. Numerous comments of concern raised in comments but no answer that I could see from the technical department. I will dig out the manual and see what that has to say.
Ok found some info on page 12 of the manual under outboard WARNING
Do not leave the outboard in the water if the boat is driven by other forms of power such as sailing or rowing
Peter C
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Yes Peter I had those concerns as well regarding leaving the prop in the water but I had cause to take my battery down to Southampton to Epropulsion technical for a new connector and asked that specific question and they said so long as it is not left switched on then should be fine. I am unable to raise the outboard on my BC 23 as you know.
The repair was completed on the same day FOC and brought back to me after the boat show.
Can’t complain about after-sales.
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It would be better for us if the tiller came off and throttle was remote....
Has anyone used a "ThrustMe Kicker"? - yes, you are still on the Swallow Yachts forum page.
I'm hoping it's powerful enough to manoeuvre Tarika in tight spots and away from the shallows of Bala town slipway and powerful enough ("16Kg thrust") to drive Hilda when I'm too lazy to row. I don't know if it's powerful enough for a fully laden BRe but it might be OK for manoeuvring in a marina.
It seems well made, weighs 4.5 Kg, has a remote control, removable tiller, quiet and various other good features. Duration at max thrust claimed 35 min and min thrust 2.5 hrs. An external battery can be fitted.
https://www.thrustme.no/eu/kicker-eu#Specifications
The Norwegian design company is rumoured to be developing a more powerful version for bigger boats.
Matthew
BR17 Tarika
CLC/Fyne Boats Northeast[er]
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Mercury Marine have announced that next year they are bringing out a range of electric outboards that seem to be targeted to compete at the lower end with the likes of Torqeedo and ePropulsion.
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There’s an eProp Spirit extra short shaft (suitable for a BayRaider) on sale on eBay for what looked like an absolute bargain price of £750. Except that it doesn’t have a battery, which would probably cost another £900.
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Hallo Matthew and all,
Thanks for the link about the Thrustme Kicker, which looks VERY interesting from my point of view - on my recent outing I faced a possible 2 mile row as the wind appeared to die (it didn't in the end), and I have decided to treat myself to not having to face possible rowing like that in future. (Rather encouragingly, my family agrees!)
Lots of things to like about the Kicker, the crucial question being - does it have the oomph? Range queries seem to be answered by the external battery option. The adverts and two reviews I've seen have it driving squishy little inflatable tenders. I suppose it's possible that one of those isn't all that hydrodynamic in terms of thrust needed to push it along, and that the Kicker could propel something larger? I'd like to see more reviews, and something a bit more objective than 'We're moving along very nicely....'
It arrived this month, and all the outlets who've advertised it seem to have sold out already, so anyone who can feed back for us would have had to have been very quick off the mark to get one. Doubtless supply/demand will settle down in due course.
So, more information please when it's available.
Michael Rogers
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Michael,
There’s a short review of the ThrustMe Kicker here https://www.mby.com/video/thrustme-kicker-electric-outboard-motor-117988. Compared to the Temo (now available in the UK https://www.billhigham.co.uk/product/temo-450-electric-outboard/), the ThrustMe appears to be slightly lighter, is cheaper and has a bit more static thrust. The Temo has a marginally bigger battery and being French, is more chic-looking. The photo of a tough-looking Norwegian fisherman using the ThrustMe can’t disguise the fact that it’s made of quite a lot of plastic.
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There's a SECONDHAND Temo (the French made Motor on a stick "longtail" motor thing) on Facebook group boat bits for sale SW, but at £1400; this iabout the same as new price....Must be telling me something, but I'm not sure what?
I've posted about the Temo before. It would perhaps suit my tender application well. But is both too expensive and too "nickable" for me.
I'll see what's about when my Honda 2.3 dies!
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Hallo Michael - great to hear from you!
I bought a Thrustme Kicker last year primarily for use on Hilda my CLC Northeast[er] Dory, for exactly the same reasons you are interested in one. Hilda is, I think, similar to your Trooper in size and character. I also bought it to "manoeuvre" Tarika (BR17) in confined shallow water such as the end of the town pier at Lake Bala.
I am very pleased with it. It quietly propels Hilda in most reasonable conditions for an hour or more (several miles) if used sensibly. On the DCA River Dee meeting it was effective for an hour with 2 people in Hilda towing a Mirror dinghy and heavy crew.
I would not recommend it for extended cruising on a heavy boat but I'm confident it will propel slowly Tarika in calm conditions. My first attempt in Tarika (BR17) was in Pembroke last week and unfortunately the prop ingested some sort of fibres and broke the blades which are slightly flimsy but enclosed in a duct. The motor is supplied with a spare propeller which requires some small Allen keys to fit.
It's easy to manage, light weight, you don't have to be a rugged Norwegian fisherman to carry it. The controller is a simple "key fob" blue tooth device which means the motor can be controlled remotely from anywhere in the boat. On the down side the magnetic "kill switch" which doubles as a power off button falls out easily and yes, the prop will break if it ingests rubbish.
Best Wishes
Matthew
BR17 Tarka
CLC Northeast[er] Hilda
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Torqeedo have just dropped their UK retail prices by something less than 10%. Compared to the equivalent eProp, they're still about 20% more expensive for a 25% shorter battery range. They have also extended their warranty, which given my experience of their flimsy build is much needed. However, I don't suppose that bits breaking and dropping off in normal use are covered by the warranty.
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The eProp outboard battery is about to become useful if we have to endure a winter of rolling power cuts, courtesy of the Kremlin. eProp are bringing out a power output cable set, possibly at the end of this month, which will give you access to the battery’s 48V for external use. You’ll need to connect it to a step down controller, preferably waterproof, to bring the voltage down to 12V but they are easy to find https://www.amazon.co.uk/HOMELYLIFE-Voltage-Converter-Waterproof-Regulator/dp/B09Q1Z94GQ/ref=asc_df_B09Q1Z94GQ/.
12V uses for dinghy cruising include connecting to a decent air pump for inflating and deflating beach rollers or an inflatable dinghy. With a solar controller, you could also use it to recharge a flat house battery if the sun is being elusive.
Domestically, it could be used to run a 12V cool box or some of the other 12V gadgets that you find in campervans. I’m going to hook it up to 12V LED strip lighting so that in the event of power cuts, we can carry on more or less as normal, in the kitchen at least. These LED lights, which come with a switch and can be daisy-chained to each other, are particularly useful and give off a bright warm light https://www.atenlighting.co.uk/led-rigid-strip-cable.html. Calculating on the back of a fag packet, I reckon that the eProp battery could run three or four of these continuously for more than 48 hours or a single one for well over a week.
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Great ideas GW, we are all going to need to be a little more resilient this winter!
Living where I do, we've had to do similar for many years...multifuel stove 8KW room heater (flat top, so can cook and heat water), gas hob (only cylinder gas hereabouts).
Got a Tonne of coal in.
Water supply is a bigger risk, but a few old folk hereabouts still prefer the well water from the end of our lane.
However, from an electrical point of view I have long-since taken a different route and have a generator, with about 40 gallons of petrol (in our cars as well as some cans!).
One of these...
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-pg2500a-euro5-22kva-320v-petrol-generat/
Not as cheap to run nor as pleasant to be around, but very versatile.
In conjunction with calor LPG gas allows us to run our central heating if wanted.
Above vaguely on topic ????
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In case anyone is afflicted with extreme range anxiety but fears immolation from Li-ion batteries, this secondhand LiFePO4 battery pack might fit the (very large) bill https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125598080894. With 48V and 120Ah, I calculate that it has enough capacity to run an eProp Spirit at full speed for more than five hours. Or at the sort of speeds that I usually do, more than ten hours to give a range of at least 40nm. There would still be plenty left over to run and recharge other devices on board through a 12V step down converter.
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Outboard giant Mercury is bringing out a small electric outboard, the Avator 7.5e. It uses something called a tranverse flux electric motor (me neither). It weighs more than the ePropulsion Spirit but has less power and a smaller battery capacity. Like all other electric outboard companies, Mercury makes dubious claims about its motor’s equivalence to petrol engined outboards. Like eProp, it uses Li-ion batteries, not the somewhat less combustible LiFePO4. There was incorrect speculation that use of the latter might explain the Avator’s adverse weight/performance ratio. No price has been announced yet but it may need to undercut existing manufacturers if it hopes to pick up market share. Still, the more competitors in this sector, the better.
The long plate just above the Avator’s propeller is interesting. Presumably its purpose is to deflect astern any upward prop wash, thus improving propulsion. A similar effect can be achieved by installing a rigid outboard well infill once your motor is in the down position, as discussed in this thread https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,843.0.html.
See here for more details on the Avator https://www.mercurymarine.com/en-gb/europe/engines/outboard/avator/mercury-avator-75e/.
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Interesting....
https://www.horizontechnology.biz/blog/electric-motor-design-radial-vs.-axial-transverse-flux
Avator motor is a big lump by the look of it, and heavy too.
With battery 27kg, same weight as a Honda 5/6 HP...but I guess you can split the Avator in two parts?
Plate is known as an anti-ventilation plate. This explanation is relevant.
"The anti-ventilation plate (AVP) does not stop or help prevent cavitation. Its sole
purpose is to prevent surface air from being sucked into the negative pressure
side of the propeller blades. This plate creates a high-pressure barrier that
prevents exhaust gases and ambient air from being sucked back into the blades.
Anti-ventilation plates are mounted to the lower units of boats and can also help
increase performance somewhat. They act as a small planing surface to get your
boat on top faster. They give you better bow response when trimming your
motor. They keep water down at your prop and intake, improving water pressure.
All planing boats and vessels equipped with stern propulsion, outboards, stern-
drives etc., are equipped with anti-ventilation plates, however there are no
established theoretical models for the function, why most of them are based on
legacy, production limitations and trials.
The future propulsion powered by electricity will open-up for radically new and
more efficient designs. Decoupling the mechanical driveshaft will provide
positioning and function freedom.
Even if electric propulsion will remove the exhaust, the surface air is still there,
however, the design and function could potentially be different."
https://www.chalmers.se/SiteCollectionDocuments/Industri-%20och%20materialvetenskap/Kandidatarbeten%202020-21/IMSX15-21-14.pdf
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If anyone needs a spare battery for their eProp Spirit, there’s a used one currently for sale on eBay. £650 and open to offers, compared to £975 new. It has a crack in its casing, so some hard bargaining may be in order.
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In case anyone is afflicted with extreme range anxiety but fears immolation from Li-ion batteries, this secondhand LiFePO4 battery pack might fit the (very large) bill https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125598080894. With 48V and 120Ah, I calculate that it has enough capacity to run an eProp Spirit at full speed for more than five hours. Or at the sort of speeds that I usually do, more than ten hours to give a range of at least 40nm. There would still be plenty left over to run and recharge other devices on board through a 12V step down converter.
Price now reduced to a more reasonable £1,250, about half what the seller says he paid for it. Given that an official eProp battery costs around £975 and has just over 1/5 of this battery’s capacity, this is a bit more tempting.
On the other hand, it’s seriously bulky (55 x 40 x 20) and weighs 35kg. What looks like an identical item but with a smaller capacity charger is available directly from AliExpress in China for delivery in two months at a cost of £954 plus VAT/import charges https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32960742844.html.
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A secondhand extra short shaft eProp Spirit (the one that fits BR outboard wells, just) is for sale on eBay for a somewhat ambitious £1,550, negotiable. See https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225493714743.
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I have sent you a PM Graham
Regards
Gareth Rowlands
BR20 GRP Halen Y mor
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The conclusion of a conversation with Gareth was that the eProp isn’t really suitable for motoring in and out of the Teifi Estuary, where currents can run at up to 4 knots, especially if the normal routine is to leave on the flood and return on the ebb. Add adverse wind and some waves to slap the boat about and a BayRaider would be lucky to make any progress at all. I expect that there are plenty of other places where this might be a problem. I tend to avoid them or do things differently.
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Perhaps a "case" (pun intended) for a £1250 secondhand battery on wheels? ;)
Hereabouts (Cornwall) biggest spring tides always accur at approx 0600/1800, so it is relatively easy to plan a day at sea, out with the ebb and home with the flood on the biggest of tidal currents (which are more like 2k, rather than 4).
That said, it's the best part of 2 miles to the open sea, and pals have found that E motors are a problem with range/duration just when they are needed most...slightly late return home, after a great day out...and pushing the ebb.
It's not unusual to see E boats dodging home up the banks, trying to feel for slackwater - or even abandoned downstream on the town pontoons and a taxi home...
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One way to banish electric range anxiety misery is to have a spare battery. And another battery to charge that battery. And solar panels. And an MPPT controller.
All hideously expensive compared to a stinkpot but I wouldn’t go back to internal combustion under virtually any circumstances. You just have to plan and think differently compared to having all that power on tap that allows you to blast through anything. Or not, if you can’t get it to start because the carburettor’s clogged again.
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GW, I think you are right with respect to carburettor issues, especially on small 4 strokes.
Imho, we are treading a very similar path with "bio-diesel", leading to increased incidents of diesel bug etc.
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I had a chat with Graham on the phone, partly to gather his experience of how much 'grunt' an E Proplusion has when you really need it, (not enough for my circumstances) and partly to vent frustration of my Yamaha coming out of winter storage and not starting - Despite having been properly serviced and winterised, Despite always using Aspen type fuel, Despite being wrapped in a blanket in an insulated dry workshop over winter, Despite all appropriate (and inapropriate) incantations and genuflections. I am not particularly technical savy - so was sorely tempted to take up stamp collecting as a more sensibe recreational pass time when faced with far too many kilos of useless metal installed on the transom. However, after some gentle coaxing from 1st mate and better half I continued to fiddle and discuss the issue with the servicing agent. It appears my problem lies in the fuel line between the remote tank and the engine. Although I had looked to see if there was fuel coming out of the end of the fuel line, I had not realised that it was not enough coming out to properly fill a drained engine. The squeezy bulb 'pump' has a non return valve in it so that you squeeze petrol in one direction only. On doing this and carefully watching the fuel filter I could see the fual filter wasn't rally getting full - just a bit in the bottom, and the bulb was never really getting stiff. Taking it iff and trying it 'in hand' showed more fuel coming out of the wrong end than the right end! As it is only two years old and looks in good nick I am a bit suprised by this failure. If ony someone would make an affrordable elecric motor of around 5hp equivalence ....
In the meantime I am having to apologise to my engine for all those inappropriate remarks!
Gareth Rowlands
Helen Y Mor BR20 GRP
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I’ve just received a pointless email from Mercury advising me about their new electric outboard, the Avator 7.5e. Pointless because it still doesn’t seem to be available in the UK and I couldn’t find out what it’s going to cost here. In the USA, it costs US$1,000 (40%) more than the eProp Spirit.
The 7.5 moniker is misleading. This is because it refers to its rated prop shaft power of 750W, not to 7.5HP. I believe that this is the same shaft power as the eProp Spirit and Torqeedo 1103C. The prop itself is three-bladed and is claimed to be more efficient than others. Attention is diverted (as usual with these claims) from the fact that the motor is only 1HP. Mercury themselves suggest that it would be suitable for propelling a 10ft dinghy. It comes in three shaft sizes and is the first outboard to use a transflux motor (me neither).
Mercury claim that the Avator is capable of speed and acceleration “similar to” its 3.5HP 4-stroke petrol outboard. I wonder how far below 3.5HP the phrase “similar to” has to go before the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 comes into play.
Other causes for scepticism:
* it weighs a truly monstrous 27kg
* its battery is a measly 1kW
* There’s no information on likely range
* It looks enormous for what it does
* US reviews say that it’s significantly noisier than the eProp Spirit.
As I said, a pointless email from Mercury, advertising an over-priced product that isn’t available. Even if it was, I doubt that you would want it. What were they thinking?
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Mercury, makers of the world's largest outboard (V12 600HP, and often fitted in multiples on one boat) jumping on the "E" bandwagon?
Rather like Lotus (famed for their lightweight, agile sports cars) and their new Eletre, an electric car, well an SUV...that is over 5m long, weighs 2 Tonnes and does 0_62 in 2.9 seconds!
Neither the Avator, nor the Eletre seem like a sensible way ahead to me!
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Torqeedo have announced a much-needed revamp of their Travel range of small electric outboards. The most interesting version is the XP, with a much bigger motor (allegedly 5HP equivalent vs 3HP claimed on the standard version) and a 1,425W integrated battery. It can run for 47 minutes at full throttle and (given its extra power) weighs a not unreasonable 23kg, with the battery accounting for 13kg of that. It’s not available in the UK yet but will cost £3,000+. Here’s a link https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/travel/travel-xp/M-1162-00.html.
ePropulsion’s nearest equivalent is the Navy 3.0, allegedly a 6HP, weighing a hefty 23kg without battery and costing around £2,500. Unlike the Torqeedo, the Navy’s battery is separate and normally has more than twice the capacity. It’s also more expensive - outboard plus battery would cost at least £3,500.
So by providing a smaller battery capacity than the eProp Navy, while cutting weight and also coming in at a lower price, Torqeedo’s XP seems to be aiming at a different segment of the market - those who quite like the idea of a lightweight outboard (like the eProp Spirit) but who need more power and are prepared to compromise on range to achieve this. I expect that eProp will respond quite quickly to the challenge.
Torqeedo’s standard versions of the Travel that compete with the eProp Spirit have also been revamped but at significant additional cost - see https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/travel.
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As someone who bought a 10 year old junk rig BC20 nearly 2 years ago for restoration to its original configuration, because it seemed(NB) like a bit of a bargain, now that I am ready to launch, going electric 'on the cheap' has become my next 'ambitious' venture.
Having surveyed these columns, the market and tried a 1kw Epropulsion in open water, my conclusions are:
- a 1kw Eprop/Torquedo is not enough for a 1000kg ballasted/laden boat in the strongly tidal waters of the Thames estuary, where encounters with heavy commercial traffic in a swell are not unusual. The next up 3kw variants are too expensive for me at £2300+ without battery
- in these conditions, none of the outboards with built in batteries offers enough endurance on one charge for a full day out, and the cost of additions is excessive per kw/hr compared with standard lithium ion batteries
- boats with cockpit outboard wells, like the BC20, could do without a large power/battery head and/or long shaft to trip over. Why should compact, light e propulsion imitate the traditional petrol formula?
The requirement might best be met by an electric pod motor on a minimal vertical slide, with around 200-250ah (24v) of lithium ion batteries cabin remotely mounted in the vacant area under the cabin entrance, where their 40kg weight might replace equivalent water ballast, while enabling removal for charging in the absence of local power points. Rob Johnstone's contribution to the thread on Electric Pod Drives (31 October 2023) points the way. The problem is that the available 3kw pods cost about the same as e outboards, leaving aside the fabrication of a sliding mount and the batteries.
Salvation, for me at least, may come in the shape of Haswing's Protruar 5, a 2.5kw/24v outboard, with a small head and a leg that offers both a sliding and tilting option. This can be had for about £700 and 2x100ah 24v IP65 lithium ion batteries for about £1700. This provides around double the thrust of the Eprop/Torquedo 1kw options, at least twice the range at equivalent thrust with these batteries, with minimal cockpit intrusion. Not cheap at £2500 all in, but at 2x the cost of a new replacement for my ageing 5hp two stroke, the margin is worth it for lower running costs, no smell/noise and first time starting with low maintenance. Haswing has been around for longer than most in USA and Germany with their trolling motors for fishermen and enjoy a good reputation for robust reliability.
But there's a catch. The 1m shaft is far too long and cutting it to around 50cm will invalidate the guarantee. It's doable diy, according to Haswing dealers and there are examples involving comparable models on the web. The task involves removing the head (2 screws), cutting the tubular SS shaft to the desired length respecting the minimum imposed by the sliding mechanism, and shortening the 3 wires from the direct drive motor to the head. I have ordered one and will test it thoroughly, before hacking it, to ensure the guarantee is unlikely to be needed. Watch this space for updates on the execution and the inevitable problems.
We all know that a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money. Let's see if I can keep it down to a compact sack or two this time.
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https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-sells-torqeedo-to-strategic-investor-yamaha-motor-co-ltd
DEUTZ sells Torqeedo to strategic investor Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd.
Important step in repositioning of the portfolio
Proceeds from the sale expected to be in the higher double-digit million-euro range
Cologne/Wessling, January 19, 2024 – DEUTZ today announced a further milestone in the repositioning of its portfolio as part of its Dual+ strategy: Torqeedo, the world's leading manufacturer of outboard and inboard drives, will be sold to Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd. ("Yamaha").
In 2017, DEUTZ acquired the specialist for electric boat drives in order to accelerate its electrification strategy for the core customer segments (especially construction equipment, agricultural machinery and material handling equipment) and expand Torqeedo’s technology and market leadership position in marine electromobility. Over the last few years, DEUTZ has successfully built an electric drive portfolio.
“The technology transfer, which was the initial goal we pursued when acquiring Torqeedo, has been achieved. In terms of market knowledge and scaling options, other partners are now better suited for Torqeedo on its way forward. We are pleased to have found such a strategic partner in Yamaha,” says DEUTZ CEO Dr. Sebastian C. Schulte. “For Torqeedo, the resulting change is a great opportunity. For DEUTZ, it is an important step towards repositioning our green division. To do this, we must systematically align our development efforts with the market and our customers’ needs. Only then we will be able to make money with our green products and build a profitable green ecosystem. This will bundle all relevant products and technologies to make sure that – also in future – DEUTZ will keep the world moving.”
Probably a very good thing given some of the sh1te that Deutz has foisted upon the world, TBD V16s, in 120 degree V, for example, made worse in very compact multi engine installations >:(
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Yamaha is a more sensible home for Torqeedo than Deutz. Torqeedo has been too slow to react to competition at the lower end of its range and its outboards are still too expensive for what they offer.
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For what it's worth, one of the conclusions of my research is that most Torqeedo outboards are made in China.
Yamaha ownership won't change that. 75% of their outboard sales are in SE Asia and you can order them direct from China on the web. Minimal final assembly for euro markets, from chinese components, qualifies for the 'made in Germany' tag, to justify the higher prices commanded by 'German' products. The big margins, ie profits, are in booming bespoke e power for larger yachts, reserved for their high cost Munich HQ.
Owners of BMW motorcycles will not be surprised. The engines of their smaller 800cc models have been made in China for the last decade and the latest 8/900cc models are entirely made and partly designed there, in Chinese mega factories which supply other local brands. A new product tag has been created : 'Designed in Germany'
Don't, therefore, assume that paying a premium for Torqeedo secures traditional German quality. E propulsion and Haswing bits may come from the same source.
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A, I think you are correct about the Chinese sourcing, however, realistically unavoidable these days it seems to me?
There's (hopefully!) A big difference in the quality of both engineering and materials between random rubbish off Ali baba etc, and my Chinese Honda?
My last "Japanese" Mariner outboard was made in Belgium...
When we ordered a newToyota Yaris, about 15 years ago, I admit to insisting on a Japanese built Toyota, rather than the alternative French-built one!
A longer wait, but this remained totally faultless for 5 years of relatively heavy use, taught 2 kids to drive. The small all-alloy, chain-cam 16v turbo diesel then overheated at appx 100,000mls and the car was an economic write off!
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It was alleged, I'm sure entirely mischievously, that when the first ePropulsion outboards came to market, they were being made side by side in the factory with parts of the equivalent Torqeedo. Also (more accurately) that the eProp was a redesign of the Torqeedo to rid it of as many of its weaknesses and design faults as possible. Not unlike what the yard did with Drascombe when it brought out the BayRaider.
By far the most costly part of electric outboards is the battery and as we know, nearly all lithium cells for consumer products come from China.
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Outboard giant Mercury is bringing out a small electric outboard, the Avator 7.5e. It uses something called a tranverse flux electric motor (me neither). It weighs more than the ePropulsion Spirit but has less power and a smaller battery capacity. Like all other electric outboard companies, Mercury makes dubious claims about its motor’s equivalence to petrol engined outboards. Like eProp, it uses Li-ion batteries, not the somewhat less combustible LiFePO4. There was incorrect speculation that use of the latter might explain the Avator’s adverse weight/performance ratio. No price has been announced yet but it may need to undercut existing manufacturers if it hopes to pick up market share. Still, the more competitors in this sector, the better.
See here for more details on the Avator https://www.mercurymarine.com/en-gb/europe/engines/outboard/avator/mercury-avator-75e/.
Have just seen a new Mercury Avator priced at £3175. Not in the flesh, as yet...
Slightly more £ at F4 chandlers ( "it" usually is...), but perhaps that's where to view one?
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There’s an article in the latest issue of Practical Boat Owner (no. 702, April) that is something of a demolition job on the original Torqeedo Travel electric outboard, written by someone who has owned one for two years. All the usual complaints are there: flimsy plastic fittings, dodgy cable connections, corrosion. To which he could have added poor after-sales service.
Torqeedo were given a right of reply, which mostly comprised claims that the revised 2024 XP models (not yet available in the UK) had rectified things. No apology for continuing to sell (even today) a dud product for 15+ years to foolish people like me. We learned the hard way that ePropulsion have consistently made better products at a lower price.
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There’s an article in the latest issue of Practical Boat Owner (no. 702, April) that is something of a demolition job on the original Torqeedo Travel electric outboard, written by someone who has owned one for two years. All the usual complaints are there: flimsy plastic fittings, dodgy cable connections, corrosion. To which he could have added poor after-sales service.
Torqeedo were given a right of reply, which mostly comprised claims that the revised 2024 XP models (not yet available in the UK) had rectified things. No apology for continuing to sell (even today) a dud product for 15+ years to foolish people like me. We learned the hard way that ePropulsion have consistently made better products at a lower price.
Excellent article, well worth a read...