Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Graham W on 30 Apr 2020, 08:22
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Anyone who has struggled with fishfinder plug and socket corrosion misery must have wondered if there is a better way. The answer surely lies in wireless technology and pulling data together on to one device and screen. Wired NMEA is supposed to achieve this and probably succeeds for those who can afford it. But what about small boat owners who don’t have the space or cash for the cabling and dedicated electronic gizmos that NMEA requires?
We all have smartphones or tablets of one kind or another. Some of us have spent extra on waterproof cases and have nautical GPS navigation apps like Navionics or iNavX already installed. What we also need is wireless access to what is going on under the boat and up in the air. Preferably from one waterproof electronic receiver processing the data from multiple sensors and then broadcasting it to whoever wants to receive it on their smart device.
A company called Vexilar moved in the right direction on fishfinder data in 2014, with a 12V fishfinder transducer and wifi transmitter which can display depth graphics on several smart devices at the same time. It can even share a split screen with the Navionics app. However, the hardware has received mixed reviews on reliability and the transmitter isn’t properly waterproof, which (given its target user) seems like a mistake. Perhaps for these reasons, it hasn’t really taken off.
Raymarine bought wireless instrument company Tacktick in 2011 but other than changing the logo, they have done very little with it. Tacktick’s expensive solar-powered wind transducer and wireless displays were great back in the day (I still use mine a lot) but surely the technology exists to send that wind data directly to a smartphone? If Raymarine weren’t jealously guarding the market share of their expensive wired NMEA boxes, they might have developed this branch of their technology. Other companies like Nasa and Garmin are finally pursuing wireless paths but most of it is much too expensive.
Netatmo have developed relatively low cost home weather devices that display a large range of variables on smart devices via WiFi but only by storing data on their remote internet servers. Boating needs someone to do something similar but without the need for internet servers - pull disparate wireless data together on the spot so that the whole lot can be displayed on one screen. My elderly iPad’s screen is already quite a bit larger than those of most proprietary free-standing fishfinders, so I would like to use that. I can only see two potential problems: keeping the smart device charged in the damp; and stopping touchscreens from having a nervous breakdown when they get wet, which can happen quite a lot on boats like ours.
At the moment it feels like we’re in the technology silo era of Betamax vs VHS, with companies slugging it out over their proprietary technologies, only to be overwhelmed by digital streaming. As I try to nurse my wired Garmin GPS/fishfinder back to life, the move to wireless can’t come soon enough for me.
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I found this smart device-enabled wind instrument, which has been on the market for about a year and costs €500 plus mounting https://www.openwind.de/. There is an NMEA connector for €200 but it doesn’t yet integrate with anything else wirelessly. However, there are hints that they are looking at this.
The associated app is free to download and gives some idea of its capabilities, including functions borrowed from the smart device’s own GPS capabilities, such as COG and SOG. The iOS version of the app uses the views from Apple Maps, which is not exactly navigation friendly but perhaps better than nothing.
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Here’s another solar-powered wind transducer with Bluetooth connectivity, also for €500 and also with an NMEA connector (0183 only) https://calypsoinstruments.com/shop/product/ultrasonic-portable-7. It’s been around since 2017 and what’s interesting about this one is that because it’s ultrasonic, it’s small and has no moving parts. The free to download app looks different to Openwind’s but functionally is much the same, as are the hints at future integration. An added benefit is that it could easily be put up somewhere in the garden without attracting attention when not on the boat.
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Another interesting post GW, thanks.
As a clanky old Mechanical Engineer, i am instinctively sceptical of such black magic!
We did however have a full TakTik suite on a large open day boat (40ft, no power) that I raced quite a few years ago. It was eye-wateringly expensive, but excellent kit. Disappointed that it seems to have neither evolved nor been discounted significantly as time has passed? Seems a bit over-kill for my BRe useage?
At the same time, i bought a TakTik race compass for my dinghy, which was quite useful (but did not prove to be indispensable to me). The battery in it is dead, and I'm not willing to pay for an exchange unit. The issue seems to be that the unit is sealed, with no "user serviceable parts". There are various work-arounds on the net, but lack of a roundtoit here....
Watching your finds with interest....
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Here’s yet another Bluetooth wind instrument at €500 https://wi-rb.com/product/rb/. This one has been around since at least 2015 and has been panned in the past for being big and ugly and (like Tacktick, as Simon mentions) having batteries that are very difficult to replace. At least they’ve dealt with the last criticism but to me it’s still seriously big and ugly. It weighs nearly 700g, compared to 135g for the Calypso. That’s quite a weight to stick on your small boat masthead - perhaps it’s aimed at owners of Thames barges? Having been around for longer, its integration with various apps is better than the others, even including some with marine charts, and it also has NMEA capabilities at extra cost.
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If lockdown continues all season, then i may just get around to repairing my TakTik racing compass? Finally?
Looks like I can get the parts needed for £20ish. Have also seen a really good "how to" video.
I would love the integrated suite, as the vmg functions, with speed over ground and speed thru water too was so useful. Tbh, couldn't face the cabling for a similar"wired" set up, regardless of cost of instruments.
But..See previous post about pensions! :-(
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In 2004, a friend took delivery of a Dufour 42 with a complete set of (new to the market?) Tacktick instruments. From what I remember of the delivery voyage, they kept going wrong and quite a lot of time was spent scratching heads and looking at instruction manuals.
On the other hand, I've had my Tacktick wind system since 2011 and it's been faultless, apart from when I backed the anemometer into a brick wall. In the absence of a decent integrated iPhone system, I'd like to connect the Tacktick to my Garmin 557xs using NMEA 0183. However, that depends on first getting the Garmin to work and then finding a cheap second hand Tacktick NMEA wireless interface. If I succeeded, I could allegedly end up with an extra screen on the Garmin looking something like the attached.
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A quote from a contributor to the Gear Anarchy forum in November 2015: “Imagine a world where you had wind, depth/speed, compass and gps sensors running off Bluetooth, Processed by iphone/android, and repeated by some nice daylight readable Bluetooth screens. Ooh, it's a simplicity nirvana!”
We’re still waiting.....
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Graham
if you have not seen it before you might be interested in the Sailtimer wind instrument - SailTimerInc.com. It's been around sufficiently long for them to have ironed at least some of the bugs.
Bill
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Thanks Bill. Although it's not obvious (as it doesn't mention the word SailTimer anywhere), I covered that one in this post https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2005.msg13265.html#msg13265. I've looked at a couple of videos of it since then and it's much larger than the others. They have a new model designated RB, which stands for Removeable Battery.
Hopefully the competitors will soon catch up in terms of app functionality. I particularly like the Spanish ultrasonic one, although I'm not in the market myself.
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thanks - in the absence of a Thames barge in the family fleet I'll have a look at the Spanish one!
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Bill,
I see that the Spanish are quite far ahead in having third party apps talking to their ultrasonic devices and I’m sure that there are more to come https://calypsoinstruments.com/page/developers. Calypso’s open technology approach is very encouraging and is already bringing down the cost of having instruments on small boats like ours.
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Easy to use integrated software and sensor technology are essential components of a good solution.
The other essential component for use in open cockpits is display hardware that is:
a) Waterproof - can operate after being dunked in water, not just splash-proof.
b) Easy to operate with wet cold fingers in gloves.
c) Bright and clear enough to read in strong sunshine.
d) Displayed big and clear enough to read with misted-up glasses.
e) Robust (including cable terminations)
f) Equipped with an operating system to use with Android or Apple Apps
g) Self contained with 8 hour minimum battery life and re-chargeable.
iPads and smart phones in plastic cases meet some of these criteria but fail on b) - easy to use with wet fingers and c) clear in bright sunlight. These are more important than long internal battery life.
Aside from £500-ish for marine chart-plotters (that mostly fail g) ) does a good hardware solution exist?
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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Matthew,
My old iPhone 6, encased in a Lifeproof Nuud, is definitely a) waterproof. I wash it under the tap when I come back from my weekly expedition to Sainsbury’s. However, being small it fails completely on b) and partly on c) and d).
Apparently it’s possible to put some tablets into rain mode, where they only respond to a special stylus and ignore water streaming down the screen. I’m sure that the military have rugged tablets but they’ll come at a cost. Lifeproof do a waterproof case for iPads but mine has fallen apart for the second time in four years, which hardly counts as rugged.
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Graham
thanks very much. I wonder where the money is here to pay the developers and produce the hardware at a sensible price. Outside the military, where painting it green and putting it in a heavy metal box always seems to add several orders of magnitude to the cost of old technology, which commercial sectors really need what we want?
Bill
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Surveyors? The police? If the market was big enough, companies like Apple would have done it long ago and shut out the after market case manufacturers.
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I think the hardware is out there?
I used to have one of these (many years ago now, before tablets were a "thing")
Panasonic Toughbook
https://business.panasonic.co.uk/mobile-solutions/products-and-accessories
It used to travel in a Pelicase
https://www.waterproof-cases.co.uk/category/peli-air-cases/
Good kit.
Biggest issue we had was that they seemed to get "lost" in transit more often than they ought to. Attractive hardware to theives, too "sexy" looking? Of course the data that went with them was the real worry.
The counter argument, against such high spec kit was that we could at that time buy about 3 ordinary units for the same cost. Therefore take our chances with water damage etc?
Ended up with toughbooks only being used when necessary to actually work outdoors. Turned out not that many applications for ruggedised PCs in reality, in our world. Not many takers for eMail or video conferences standing in the peeing rain, or worse!
They were also very heavy and clunky to lug about.
Tablets with appropriate apps might change the game nowadays? I didn't check to see current prices.
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The challenge seems to be finding something sunlight readable and wet finger operable. This looks promising but $1,800 for display alone is expensive compared to a small Garmin chart-plotter package or similar.
https://www.stealth.com/ruggedlcds/marinelcds/8-4-marine-waterproof-lcd-monitor-sunlight-readable-display/
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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A crazy price for the (passive?) display! And a decent spec Panasonic Toughpad, which at least has an operating system (albeit the wrong one for me), is over £2,000.
A complete and quite upmarket system based on the Dragonfly 7 Pro GPS/fishfinder and Tacktick wind system, all talking to each other, would cost about £1,600. Still too much but at least you get all the information that you need.
I reckon sensibly priced Bluetooth systems that do everything required are a couple of years away. Then I have to find a decent waterproof case for my iPad that won’t fall apart and I’m happy.
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In the absence of the simplicity nirvana quoted above from the Gear Anarchy forum, I have made do with the tired old technology that I already have, which is:
Garmin 557xs GPS/fishfinder (2013)
Tacktick T112 wireless wind system (1997?)
I have now added a cheap reconditioned Tacktick T122 NMEA 0183 transmitter, so that wind data is sent to the Garmin and can be displayed there as an overlay on the chart or as separate wind gauges. I bought the T122 from Steve Moore, who was recommended on the forum for all things Tacktick by Peter C https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,971.msg6237.html#msg6237. I also highly recommend him.
As Garmin and Tacktick (Raymarine) stay in their respective technology silos and make interconnection needlessly difficult, Steve helped me understand which wires went where. It’s not at all obvious but at least nearly all the NMEA wires already exist in the Garmin’s power cable so it involved minimal additional wiring. I also had to work out how to configure the Garmin to accept the Tacktick NMEA data. It now all works and if anyone wants to go down the same route, I know what to do and can make it relatively painless. Even quite old Garmin models (eg the 556s) can be connected up this way.
One step towards simplicity nirvana is that Garmin screens can be viewed and controlled on the water by an iPad or iPhone through a free app called Garmin Helm, which has been superseded by Garmin ActiveCaptain. Screenshots from my iPad below. It’s actually easier to control the Garmin on the iPad (for example when inputting waypoints) than on the Garmin itself.
One other benefit from linking the two systems is that they can both now display their version of true wind speed and direction, derived from the Garmin’s SOG and heading (when underway) and the Tacktick’s apparent wind speed and direction.
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Has anyone used one of these?
https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Garmin/GPSMAP-276Cx-Portable-Chartplotter/A99?fbclid=IwAR0NXN_vMH9vlSZRExZT_n94Td6MK9iablmkI1b2VHMAZYA7UDhCwQ8s09Q
Expensive but seems to tick a lot of boxes including high viz screen, 8 hrs with AA battery or 16 hrs lithium life, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc
Matthew
Gladys BR20
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Matthew,
I can see the attraction of not having to install a 12V battery on your new boat. However, this unit seems very expensive compared to 12V fishfinder/GPS units, which also tell you what is going on under the boat. Here’s a very cheap example https://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-STRIKER-4-Fishfinder-GPS/dp/B01AKI4VH4/ref=asc_df_B01AKI4VH4/. Electronically spotting shoals of fish and changes in the seabed adds another dimension to my sailing experience.
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I've watched this discussion of the technology with interest. It does occur to me that the desire to have all the sensor information presented to you on one display does lead you down the path of a a single failure-that of the display renders the whole lot useless. This was brought home to me on Riff Raff, when one (of the many) connections to the "all singing" Raymarine display left me with a blank screen and some interesting "old fashioned" navigation - fortunately in an area where I had real chart.
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I’ve just upgraded and updated the excellent Navionics navigation software on my iPad, which also allows me to use the same app on my iPhone, for £35 for a year. To continue automatically updating charts for the whole of the UK thereafter would involve an annual subscription at the same price.
To update the charts and upgrade to the same level of functionality on my Garmin GPS/fishfinder would cost a whopping £240. That’s just for the southern UK. If I want to do the same for the west coast of Scotland, that’s another £240. I could save money by buying western Europe (including the UK) for £335. Garmin have bought Navionics, so the pricing conversations between parent and subsidiary must be interesting.
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The challenge seems to be finding something sunlight readable and wet finger operable. This looks promising but $1,800 for display alone is expensive compared to a small Garmin chart-plotter package or similar.
https://www.stealth.com/ruggedlcds/marinelcds/8-4-marine-waterproof-lcd-monitor-sunlight-readable-display/
I’ve come across some rugged Android 11 tablets that have been specifically developed by a Belgian company for sailing https://sailproof.shop/. Sailproof claims that its two tablets (8” and 10”) are both sunlight readable and wet finger operable. And they cost nothing like $1800, although I think that if in the UK, you will have to pay 20% VAT on top of the quoted prices.
If the screen brightness is as good as the claimed 1000 nits, that’s substantially better than the 350 nits on my unreadable old iPad and as good as a new M1-chipped iPad Pro. Sailproof also claim that their Gorilla glass screens can be operated with wet fingers and gloves. They do a Windows version but apparently that’s not much use if you want to use apps such as Navionics.
Now all we need is a suite of open source integrated apps that tie together all the boat’s vital signs, preferably wirelessly over Bluetooth. That would give Raymarine et al, with their overpriced and proprietary technologies, something to really worry about.
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Perhaps we really are on the brink of overthrowing the expensive and tired old technology! In the past few months a UK company has brought to market a Bluetooth depth sounder that looks encouraging https://echozilla.co.uk/. Like the Calypso wind transducer, its app can do a split screen display with the Navionics charting app.
We're not quite there on costs yet. A 7" Garmin GPS/fishfinder, with depth transducer and Garmin's own wireless wind system costs about £1400. An 8" Sailproof tablet with Calypso wind and Echozilla depth would be about £1500. On the other hand, you can't do email, hold a Zoom meeting or read a digital newspaper on a Garmin. And if you compare a 9" Garmin system with a 10" Sailproof system, the costs are about the same at around £1700.
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Reading this I noted earlier Openwind was mentioned. I used this on my previous boat and was very happy with it. I developed code ( in Golang) that ran on a raspberry Pi ( running TinyCore) which converted the Bluetooth to WiFi. I then produced a screen via my own webserver on the Pi which allowed a kindle to display wind/COG/SOG on various screens. The advantage of the kindle is that it is E-ink based and so the sun does not get in the way and you can make the numbers as large as you want so I could read them from the back of the cockpit. It also had very low power consumption. Tiny Core meant you could just turn the Pi on and off with no shutdown issues.
When purchasing Bagpuss, I inherited ( luckily and one of the reasons for purchase) from Jonathan sensors - a wireless NASA wind, depth, compass, GPS which were all bar one fed into a multiplexor then into a raspberry pi. The radio and ST2000 tiller pilot also connected to the multiplexor.
I have produced another iteration of my previous boat and now have a Kindle display - see 2 of the screens reading off that data. I have also produced a WiFi data stream that produces 0183 sentences to applications such as Navionics and any other that reads WiFi. So Navionics now displays the AIS stream from the radio. I use a Fire tablet running Navionics but you cannot really see the display and this is the biggest down side of the whole piece. I would also like to create a route and get the tiller pilot to follow it. This is my next project.
So the issue for me is the chart plotter. However I will wait. Just round the corner ( some are already out) are colour E-ink devices which run Android. They are not expensive will not have sunlight issues so will resolve the issues for the main display. SailProof looks good though.
WiFi networks or I hope Bluetooth networks will become the norm in the future especially with the low powered Bluetooth becoming more prevalent. A new marine standard is also emerging - NMEA OneNet based on ethernet - a move away from the car based 2000. You still need to get power to the sensors not all can reside in the sunlight. I would prefer Signal K and if OpenCPM was vector based would switch to it straight away. However its maps in the Solent are not very good - unless someone out there can tell me where I have gone wrong.
The best for us , I believe is to purchase a miniplex to Wifi multiplexor which creates a Wifi datastream and then use your devices to read off of that. It also can also output to wired NMEA devices ( both 0183 and 2000) which would allow dedicated displays that do not have wireless. However to use a Kindle you would need the web-server I have developed or something much better.
I was going to write an in-depth article about it if people are interested.
PS - the screens shown are when I was stationary so some data incorrect. When you move the data dependant on True are correct so please ignore that. When you are on your own I keep forgetting to take pictures of the screen when I am actually sailing.
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Very impressive work Andy...way beyond my comprehension and "IT" abilities! Interested to (try to!) Learn more.
I can only add/comment that several years ago i brought a Kindle specifically to read newspapers, novels etc while sitting in the sun while on holiday/on the boat. Excellent device with E ink.
Hugely irritated to find their online services had been discontinued, but still use the kindle to read novels on deck, in the sun, way better for that than my new Samsung tablet.
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Whoa! Like Simon, most of that is well beyond my comprehension but the end results (and the exceptional clarity of the monochrome e-ink device) are very impressive.
Let’s hope that colour e-ink devices continue to improve in definition and colour balance and take off big time in the near future. Fairly decent 8” versions already on the market are in the £200-300 price range but the price should come down with higher volumes. When combined in the future with Bluetooth devices and transducers integrated with each other in all sorts of AndyB-like clever ways, there’s a real chance of spectacular market disruption hitting the current oligopolists.
And speaking of oligopolist Raymarine, I’m sorry to report that ex-Tacktick engineer Steve Moore has given up refurbishing secondhand Tacktick instruments for sale at very reasonable prices on eBay. Raymarine either stopped supplying Tacktick spares or made them ridiculously expensive. A brand new Tacktick single line data display now costs an unjustifiable £400 and a dual display around £500. Raymarine thoroughly deserve whatever miserable fate awaits them in the future.
I was going to write an in-depth article about it if people are interested.
Yes please!
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I have added 'oligopoly' to my list of splendid words for which one then searches for opportunities to use them. (The grammar in that sentence is suspect, but I'm not sure why.) As I'm not involved in commerce or economics, I may have to wait a bit. Could one add in 'oligopolology' (= the study of oligopoly)?
Patrick O'Brien managed to insert 'floccinaucinihilipilification' fairly fluently into one of his Aubrey/Maturin novels. There are about 20 books, and I can't now remember which one it is. Anyone know?
Michael
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Master & Commander, 1969.
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Thank you, Graham. Trust you to know!!
Michael
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As requested please see in the library section , maintenance & modifications - boat instruments (https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=2710) an article on my boat instruments, how it is setup and what programs I wrote to get it all working. I hope it is not too detailed but conveys what I have been doing.
If there is anyone out there who wants a similar approach or just questions on general setup please do get in touch and I will try and help out.
Best regards
Andy B
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Thank you Andy. Even if most of us (including me) are not tech-literate, we can all appreciate the stunning clarity and sophistication of what you have on your Kindle screen shots. The oligopolist chart plotter brands charge ludicrous prices for items that at the margin cost them virtually nothing to push out - chart upgrades in particular. I think that they’re cutting their own throats in the longer term, particularly if your approach becomes commercially available based on large high definition colour e-ink devices.
Interesting that you helped on Openwind.de. Well done for furthering the Bluetooth-based cause, which should ultimately produce all the data that you need, transmitted wirelessly and seamlessly to devices of exceptional clarity. And requiring neither a big battery nor deep pockets. We’re definitely getting there!
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I’ve just come across another waterproof tablet-based navigation system by Norwegian company Orca https://getorca.com. I’m not quite so convinced about this one compared to its Belgian competitor Sailproof https://sailproof.shop.
It’s quite a bit more expensive than Sailproof and unless I’m missing something, can’t operate as a normal tablet in its spare time. Its battery seems to be about 25% smaller. It relies on NMEA 2000 and wifi rather than Bluetooth to connect to the rest of any network (including transducers). And although it makes claims about readability, I couldn’t find any information on the technical specification of its screen, which seems to be sourced from Samsung. If you want to rely on its underlying charting and other software (I’m not sure that there’s any choice in this), then you have to pay a large annual subscription. And looking at comments on the owners’ club, there seem to be quite significant software glitches.
In short, it doesn’t seem like the oligopolist-killer that Sailproof and a gaggle of Bluetooth-oriented sensor companies (Calypso, Openwind, Echozilla) may one day turn out to be.
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I’ve just come across another waterproof tablet-based navigation system by Norwegian company Orca https://getorca.com.
My brother has one of these, and it's a drama. The connection between the Orca and display/tablet often is lost, syncing routes between the 2 doesn't work and lots of other issues.
He's ditching it in favor of a Garmin, so if anyone has an interest.... ;)
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Here’s another rugged Android 11 tablet that shares many of the attributes of the Sailproof 10 but at significantly less than half the price https://www.amazon.co.uk/OUKITEL-RT1-10000mAh-Octa-Core-1920x1200-Black/dp/B09LC65BX6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa. It’s IP68 waterproof, has a large battery, a 10” screen, GPS and Bluetooth and appears to be well protected from drops and knocks.
Sounds too good to be true? For our purposes, it probably is, as although screen resolution is similar to that of the Sailproof, the Oukitel’s sunlight readability is probably insufficient - 350 nits vs the Sailproof’s 1,000 nits. It might be suitable for use at a below decks chart station but probably not in the cockpit.
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Scrolling down the Amazon page for the Oukitel RT1, I noticed that there’s a much newer model, the RT2. This has twice the battery capacity and memory of the RT1 and runs Android 12 but appears to be in all other respects the same. It is still only half the price of the Sailproof but would probably still suffer from the same sunlight readability issues as the RT1. See https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BFX2X7TS/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0.
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I've just placed my order for the Sailproof 10" - primarily based on advice from this thread (thanks in particular to Graham W). Maybe if I already owned a decent tablet I may have gone for some decent waterproofing but I went for the deep end with the Sailproof.I've now just got to decide which apps to run on it; probably Navionics and, later, Antares. As Antares requires Memory Map I may get that as well but I'm not certain I'll make it to Scotland this summer.
So if anyone is interested in the SP10 just ping me - though I'm not planning on using it in anger until mid-April.
BTW - I was very unconvinced by the Orca as it just seemed to be another proprietary bundle with a hefty price tag and reliant upon remote inputs that were not readily available on a BRe, i.e. it was a sledgehammer to miss a nut.
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Swallow fitted my BC23 with a Garmin GPSMAP 722XS and a Garmin GNX Wireless Wind Pack. They communicate via Bluetooth and perform flawlessly, or at least did last season.
Having not really had the need to get to grips with this stuff in 2022, I will need to in 2023 to cruise the Swedish Archipelago etc. I have used Navionics in friendly UK and French waters that I know, but I want to be sure I can avoid all the Baltic granite in 2023!
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I've just placed my order for the Sailproof 10" - primarily based on advice from this thread (thanks in particular to Graham W). Maybe if I already owned a decent tablet I may have gone for some decent waterproofing but I went for the deep end with the Sailproof.I've now just got to decide which apps to run on it; probably Navionics and, later, Antares. As Antares requires Memory Map I may get that as well but I'm not certain I'll make it to Scotland this summer.
Congratulations on your Sailproof purchase.
I think that if you have Navionics (vector charts) and Memory Map for All (raster charts, plus NMEA instruments if you want them), then you have all the bases covered. MMfA has just become a lot more attractive as the UKHO raster charts now come in an HD quilted version. This means that if all the charts for an area are of the same scale (say 1:12500 around Falmouth or 1:30000 around Barra), then they run seamlessly from one to the next. Previously, you would fall off the end of a chart and then have to fish around for the next one.
The complete set of 850 UKHO charts covering the whole of the British Isles is available through MMfA for £25. So even if you don’t need Antares chartlets for the time being, there’s still a good reason for getting MMfA.
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Thanks Graham
Seems very sound advice. I'll give both Navionics and MMfA a shot.
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I have just bought a sailproof 8 inch as well. Very good tablet pleased with the purchase. Please see picture. It is in an aluminium ( home built) cradle and stuck on at the moment until I am happy with the arrangement. I have it connected by wifi to the raspberry pi and get NMEA traffic as much as Navionics can handle. I also attach it to my phone via bluetooth so can get internet. Useful for Navily.
On the tablet I have : PredictWind, Imray Tides, Solentmet, Met Office, BBC Weather, Royal Navy tides, Navily, Sail Expert.
For charts I have Imray (comes with the paper charts) , Navionics ( paid subscription). I tried out Aqua Map and Savvy Navvy but they did not seem to have a lot of detail especially when anchoring. I like paper charts and use them a lot but not sure raster works with small screens. However I do like the clarity of Imray and it provides different info to Navionics so having both is a plus. I would like to see how AngelNav works when it comes out on Android. My goto apps are Predictwind and Navionics but use the others for specific purposes.
The tablet can be seen in the cockpit, close enough to adjust size of map, last the whole day - what more can you ask. I have removed the 3 screen navigation buttons and use gestures so get a full screen. AIS is a pain and I tend to filter it. Too busy in the Solent. I expect much better when in the channel/outside Solent. Not sure whether it should be landscape or portrait. Would welcome advice.
My phone, a Galaxy S20+ ( hand me down from my son), has Samsung Dex. This is brilliant. I network this ( wirelessly) to a Samsung Dex program on the Windows 10 PC. I can then project Navionics ( or any other app) on to my 23 inch screen and create routes which is much easier with a large screen, keyboard and mouse. They automatically get sent to the Sailproof.
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Good stuff. Interesting to see how much clearer your Kindle is compared even to the Sailproof.
I reckon that an 8” screen is fine for Swallows with lids but may be too small for a BR20 if it is placed at a distance from the helm, just under the foredeck. I prefer portrait to landscape but it depends on the space available.
Please can you share a photo of your aluminium bracket without the tablet in it?
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I went down to the boat yesterday which was a cloudy, sunny day. Typical weather for these parts. I could easily see Navionics from the the end of the cockpit which is about 6ft away. What is interesting is that there is a limit to the angle of viewing of less than 25 degrees. So it is difficult to see on the starboard side when less than 1 ft from the front if you are sitting down - leaning forward resolves this.
I was helping put an anemometer on Madhu's 26 on a very sunny day ( Friday) and he commented on how difficult it was to see the Garmin GPSMAP plotter. It seemed to me that the Sailproof was easier to see than that and the number of Nits bear that out. The last picture did not show it up favourably - maybe the phone camera showed too much reflection.
The 10 inch version has the same number of pixels as the 8 inch which is why I went for the 8inch. You get the same amount of information in a smaller area. I would find it difficult to find a place on the boat to put a 10 inch bearing in mind you spend most of your time adjusting the resolution depending on what you are looking at. From where you are now in detail to panning out to see where you are going. This is why I have it so I can reach it easily from the tiller. Like you I am tending to portrait as it is more natural for the tablet but maybe a complex rotating cradle - now that would be a challenge.
The cradle is fashioned from 1mm aluminium sheet from your local DIY shop. Cutting it is the most difficult. A picture of it empty is attached. I have for the moment stuck it on to the cockpit using Mimeimial double sided tape from Amazon. I use this to start off with and then move to a more permanent fixing like the kindle below when I am happy. The rope holders will stay like that - they do not use the tape but have stayed stuck on for a couple of years now. The cradle being of 1 mm thickness does have sharp edges which although sanded can still cut you so it is best having the tablet in situ. Not been out in high seas yet -- but if it falls off the tablet is supposed to be rugged.
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I've just placed my order for the Sailproof 10" - primarily based on advice from this thread (thanks in particular to Graham W)...
So if anyone is interested in the SP10 just ping me - though I'm not planning on using it in anger until mid-April.
How is the new sailproof 10" doing, and what software are you using please?
The "pogo pin" charging also appeals.
How's your 8" performing GW/AB?
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I am very pleased with my Sailproof 8. It is clear to see throughout the cockpit and easy to read on a sunny day. A great addition to my e-ink display. I now have the many readouts from wind, depth, speed etc on the e-ink display and charting from the sailproof.
So a happy boy just need some weather to use it in anger - just 2 day trips so far. I have it and the e-ink display connected to USB charging ports to keep them charged up whilst the sun is out but for day sailing where there is evening power access they last all day.
I have the sailproof connected to the boat wifi to receive AIS (from the radio) and the other instruments. I have it connected to my phone via bluetooth to get the internet though only for the longer passages and for next day planning whilst at anchor/berth. I could get a sim card but do not want the added expense.
For sailing I use Navionics - it displays AIS, depth and SOG and tracks your progress. I also use Solentmet when in the Solent and graphs from the e-ink device to try and predict how the weather is progressing but would like to add a barometer at some point
For planning I use PredictWind ( free version - still very accurate), Imray Tides and Navionics. Planning using tide streams is difficult and done the old fashioned way - by hand. I also reference BBC weather ( not very good), Met office (much better).
I also have Imray Navigator ( came with the paper charts) , AquaMap ( don't use), Sail Expert ( doesn't work at the moment but has potential as a replacement for the e-ink device - redundancy options)
In the evening on the boat I use Chrome to respond to emails etc and the e-ink device to read books.
So happy with my purchase and would recommend it. Please see my previous post for more details.
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Thanks AB, very helpful.
Q. Do you charge with pogo pins or USB>DC jack? These facilities are attractive to me.
I fret about open/unplugged usb ports and find them vulnerable, and relatively not durable/fragile.
I have had to replace usb ports on two newish, but heavily used Hudl tabs.
Q. Is the upgraded faster 8" worth the quite considerable premium? Can't see that I need it on a slow moving sailboat? But see below...
I'm considering a modernisation/upgrade, as when recently VERY badly lost in VERY thick fog (<20m vis), cliffs with rocky shore _luckily close to home, and relatively well known to me, neither my trusty old Garmin GPS72, nor well used 8" Samsung tab were fixing/re-drawing quickly enough for my liking, and at times were conflicting. Stressy!
I see Garmin did a 72H model, with increased sensitivity and plotting rate, so maybe this is a known issue?
Garmin has only my waypoints and nav marks, samsung UKHO raster charts.
However.
The most frightening part of the experience was being passed closeby at speed by several large expensive RHIBS, all glued to their large expensive plotters...apparently completely oblivious to the fact that I (and a similarly lost pal, in a similar smallish boat, about 300m behind me) would not appear on their plotters. Incidentally, this pal also had gps issues, so maybe ther was a local glitch?
...and then passed by a substantial FV who sounded like he was watching TV!
So - also now considering active AIS!
But £££ for v occasional need
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I have the SP08s for £585 plus shipping and tax. It works well for me. Can't say if the upgrade of £135 plus more tax is worth it. I didn't buy it :)
The unit comes with a DC jack with a USB-A on the end of it and in addition a power supply (240v) with a DC jack. That is their recommended way of charging. The unit easily lasts a day so you do not need to charge on the boat. So no need to worry about USB ports failing for charging. I have not used the USB ports. If you have it in portrait mode then the DC jack can be underneath the unit.
I have not suffered from GPS loss probably as I have GPS signal from the unit, the radio and the specialist GlobalSat device. All can supply but I use the GlobalSat. It is mounted just under the top of the coach roof. The GPS device should be as close to the sky as possible but if you are near to land then most use phone masts as well. So it maybe local. Did you try your phone?
I suspect an active AIS would not have made much difference as the RIBS probably didn't have an AIS decoder since it is a special purchase and someone doing high speed in a foggy environment probably finds safety a bit boring.
Provided the manual for the SPO8s/x ....
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Hi Simon
I'm just back from a week away on my BRe. The SP10 is very good but I am very sure I don't get the most from it and I do have a couple of gripes. The main Apps I use are Navionics, Windy (backed up by PredictWind and others on my phone), plus I have Reed's Almanac, which is good to have in both water and windproof formats. I mount it on a removable Scanstrut bracket (bolted through the bulkhead), which I give 7/10 as it is a little vulnerable. I also have a retaining line attached to the canvas pockets in case the SP10 is knocked out the Scanstrut. The Scanstrut suction bracket is not strong enough to support the weight of the SP10 on a vertical surface but I have kept it for unforeseen situations. You probably have more mounting options on your BC23. My biggest gripe - I need access to power as, frustratingly, I cannot get the battery to last a whole day at sea despite downloading relevant charts from Navionics. So I need easy and dry access to the USB cable emerging from the cabin.
Navionics works well and is 'always-on' and shows just a little degradation in bright light. The screen works well when wet - far better than an iPhone. Navionics is also useful for measuring wind shifts (by comparing current heading to course sailed) as I don't have a masthead wind indicator.
I suspect the SP10 makes decision-making faster/better compared to the SP8 as it's easier to see detail but that is a personal view.
Maybe I need to start looking at GRIB files (someone mentioned them in this thread I think), of which I know nothing?
I'm glad I bought it but, as I had no cash tied up in anything similar, it was a fairly easy decision.
I hope that's useful.
Willie
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Thank you for this info Willie, very helpful.
ATM, I'm baulking at almost £900 for the Sailproof 10, delivered, and with vat added to their "headline prices" tbh...particularly as I rarely stray too far from S Cornwall.
Ask me again after the next fog Bank encounter! ;)
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I went for a day sail yesterday - apart from losing the wind in the middle of the day it was a good sail in the Solent. Sunny hardly a cloud F3/F4 slight sea.
The SP08S worked well - had it set @ 75% brightness which was easy to see even with the sprayhood down. This meant it used 7% of its battery every hour. I had Navioincs running and tracking on. If you look at Sailproof FAQs it gives you figures at different levels of brightness. Worth a read.
I also use the app 'FullImmersive'. This removes the status bar and navigation bar and provides a fullscreen for the charting programme - looks a lot better and gives lot more screen. Well worth the pain of using it. I have not purchased it. Just run it ,when it asks you to look at an ad or buy it I just shut it down and it works anyway in manual mode. Keyboard use requires a visit to the notification bar to enable it. I'll probably buy after some usage.
I compared the sp08 to the sp10. Speed wise it is basically the same but the sp10 is faster. the sp08 has sensors but the sp10 does not bizarrely ( apart from GPS). SP10 is a lot heavier (1.1Kgs) than the sp08 (0.7kgs) as you would expect from a screen which is a lot bigger so you would need a decent mount. Difficult choice to make - I think it depends on whether you need that larger screen.
I like PredictWind because of PWG/PWE option which is a combination of GRIB files especially for coastal waters PWE for Europe and PWG for global. Windy tends to use individual GRIB files. Comparing the 2 there does not seem that different until you get 4-5 days out. I get the feeling that automatic routing using GRIB files is only for those willing to purchase the premium section which is very expensive.
Simon, when I said to Sailproof Brexit had meant a large increase in duty they said that it was lower than Europe taxes so we were better off :)
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Andy - Useful tips - thanks and now I know what GRIB is! :-)
Simon - I sailed from Helford to Falmouth last Thursday, during Falmouth Week - so rather busy plus it was in a pea-souper. I was very pleased to have Navionics; just need AIS next but that's not going to happen!
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Simon,
Thought this picture might help. The screen on the right is the 8inch Sailproof with 800*1200 pixels.
The screen on the left is a 10 inch Samsung tab 5 se with 2560*1600 pixels.
The idea is to give you a difference in physical size. Please be aware of the surround on the SP08 is larger than the Samsung and this will be repeated on the SP10.
Be careful of comparing the content and colour density. The Samsung having a much more dense display displays far more both in colour and content - the SP10 will be the same as the SP08 as it is the same screen. The displays have different brightness as the SP08 is so much more - 1000 NITS as opposed to Samsung's 450 NITS. I could get the brightness to be the same the adjusters are not fine enough.
Navionics is on the same zoom level but the SP05 has 'full immersive' on so the whole screen is used.
Hope this helps.
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Thank you again Andy. Very helpful.
I'm still not decided...
As well as the not insignificant "investment", I'm also still not entirely comfortable about mountings/positioning (due to the weight of the larger unit, my RAM suction mount appears to not be man enough?).
Perhaps have the smaller unit, in the RAM, on the bulkhead, but on a lanyard at the helm for pilotage duties?
My cockpit is unusually long, perhaps 8ft, and I'm probably not going to be able to use a bulkhead mounted screen unless so large that it gets in the way when sailing.
Meanwhile,
My trusty old Garmin GPS72 has again provided Sterling service this past regatta week here, finding small racing marks in big seas/limited viz....but in open waters and skys, and generally not surrounded by angry rocks/cliffs!
I'm not abandoning it yet.
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Simon,
Before I went for a tablet I used a phone ( Android) with Navionics loaded. It worked surprisingly well. The phone was not my normal one but a previous model I used.
It had its own GPS, SOG but not depth etc.
I had it mounted on my left forearm with a 'running mount' which was splash proof. I had a battery to charge it up later on during the day ( rarely had to do this) and the screen went dark until I tapped it - it was a Samsung.
I still have the setup and the original garmin GPS device ( no map).
I used this for about 10 years and thought very hard before I moved to a tablet.
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Someone has just come out with an E-ink navigation tablet, with all sorts of advantages https://www.maptattoo.com. However, a major problem is that it only runs on proprietary software for this reason: "We had to develop our own software as the E-Ink screen needs to be piloted precisely in order to minimize refresh rates and keep an optimal user experience." It has GPS functionality but no Navionics (or similar) and as far as I can tell, no integration with NMEA data. Also, only North American charts are available at the moment. The UK and France are coming soon.
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Always being interested in E-ink technology for boats I have been looking for a chartplotter type device for some years - it needed to be colour, e-ink and waterproof. We sailors tend to have slow moving boats so the refresh speed is not so important.
I gave up waiting for one and went for the sailproof which despite being very good is not as clear as the waterproof kindle that supplies the NMEA data and more.
This is a step in the right direction but is still not colour which I believe is important for showing details on the map hence the move from grayscale plotters to colour ones.
From my reading it is a Linux based system but does not say which type. OpenCPN works on an ARM cpu. MemoryMap has a Linux option as well. Windows systems could also be used using a sub-system called Wine.
So plenty to go on. However the grayscale a big no no for me. Maybe the next version will be colour if they get past the raising of money for production models.
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So far, I’ve only used my Sailproof 10” for any length of time on board a friend’s 1999-built yacht in Greece.
The good:
* Definite sunlight-readability even in the hottest and sunniest conditions. Apple products don’t like direct sunlight and can stop working when too hot.
* Navionics works well on it as a plotter, while GPS functions like autorouting, tracking and ETA can be very helpful, especially when the yacht’s old-style nav station is down below. I’d say that it’s almost essential at the helm when trying to inch into tricky and unknown anchorages.
* Savvy Navvy is not so successful because it is slower to respond and its charts lack the contrast of Navionics. It’s good for forward planning though. Greek charts for Memory Map are not available so that app was not tested.
* The inbuilt GPS is fast and extremely accurate as it picks up Galileo satellite signals
* The tablet is definitely robust and suitably waterproof (and heavy).
* It can be used anywhere, unlike a typical wired and fixed navigation system and (data connection permitting) can also be used for looking up stuff like the weather on the internet, sending emails, banking, listening to BBC Sounds, etc.
* The touch screen functionality is good
* I’m sure that the yacht’s elderly Raymarine instruments could easily be made to interface with the tablet by installing a cheap Seatalk 1 wifi multiplexer, allowing wind and depth data to be displayed on the tablet. Possibly also providing a close-hauled wind indicator, which the yacht didn’t have.
* The Navionics charts are very much better than the charts on the old Raymarine plotter and are kept up-to-date over the air.
Not so good
* Tethering to an iPhone drops the mobile connection at random intervals but this also seems to be a problem with the iPad. Using a cheap dedicated data SIM may be the way to go with this. Not a problem if you’ve already downloaded the relevant charts and don’t want to change app settings like contour lines.
* Long battery life at full brightness can only be achieved if the tablet screen is switched off at intervals while Navionics continues to track in the background. If left on all the time, battery life is only a few hours (I didn’t measure how many but it may only be four or five). I think that a spare battery and the ability to do USB charging on board is a must. Opening the USB port for charging is a bit fiddly
* Turning the Android screen back on after a rest is a bit convoluted compared to Apple. Android 11 is a bit clunky generally compared to iPadOS.
Overall, a success and much cheaper and less complicated than buying an expensive Raymarine repeater for the yacht’s helm. I look forward to using the Sailproof on my own boat next season in the UK, integrated with my Tacktick instrument data. Particularly using Memory Map raster charts and chartlets.
The Android 11 system is not my favourite but I can live with it. If I was in a hurry, I still found myself referring to Navionics on my elderly iPhone on occasion. If money was no object following a lottery win, I might be tempted to get a very expensive Apple iPad with decent sunlight readability (only the topmost model has this) and an armoured and waterproof case. As its battery isn’t swappable, unlike on the Sailproof, I would have to find a way of USB charging it on the go. Waterproof wireless charging will come to tablets eventually.
I think a large and clear screen is important if it is positioned at a distance from the helm. If it is closer than the front end of a BR20 cockpit (or right in front of the helm on a yacht), then an 8” version with its longer battery life may be more suitable than the 10”.
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Graham
I think you have articulated all the pros and cons of the SP10 spot-on; no wonder you're a demi-god! You've also convinced me that I made the correct decision buying the 10" rather than the 8", for the reasons you mention.
I do have a cheap SIM-only deal with Giff Gaff which means the signal is perhaps more reliable that using iPhone Hotspot, plus my iPhone battery isn't killed - two important safety points.
The future is definitely in tablets (rather than proprietary hardware) given their versatility and access to an array of low-cost Apps for Nav, Weather etc.
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For those that have been following this thread, there is another one with slightly similar content, concentrating more on what is available in the world of navigation-capable tablets https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,3311.0.html. I think that the Tripltek 8” Pro (and the newer 9 Pro) which haven’t been discussed in the current thread, are quite interesting rivals to the Sailproof 8”. Expensive though.
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Expensive...compared to the Sailproof?
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Yup. The 9 Pro is approaching iPad country.
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Do I read this right that you can get UK charts using Navionics on a Sailproof 8 or 9? Navionics appear to have abandoned UK charts on their Android offering - or am I mistaken?
(Not that I need them for Lockdown but you never know what's in the offing.
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Rob
I have Navionics (for Northern Europe I think - can check if required) on my SP10 for about 34 quid a year and it works fine.
DM me if you are thinking of buying a SP10.
Willie
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The way it works with Navionics is that you download the app for free and pay an annual chart fee for one user (the amount depends on what geographical area you need) and can then use it on both Android (Sailproof) and iOS (iPad, iPhone) without extra cost. Obviously the different operating systems require separate app downloads but there’s nothing to stop you from having the app on both types of OS at the same time. You just log in to your account in the app and your current chart subscriptions are there to download.
I’ve just looked up Navionics Boating on the Google Play store for Android apps and it’s still available as a free download, with charts being extra, as above. Don’t do what I did and download the UK, French Mediterranean and Greek Ionian separately, substantially more expensive than buying the UK and the whole of the Mediterranean in one go. You used to be able to get the whole of Europe (excluding the UK) as one package but they’ve now subdivided it.
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I have been using Navionics for sometime now on the Sailproof 08 ( 8 inch ). I think it is a very good solution. Please see attached an image of Navionics on said equipment. I have Navionics on my mobile phone and another tablet for the same subscription - I believe you can have up to 6 devices but maybe wrong on that. My phone has Samsung Dex which allows me to plan at home on a large screen ( 26 inch). They all automatically sync.
Navionics provides up to date charts ( vector) for the area I sail in (southern England). You can purchase a set of charts and then have a year long set of updates. Post that you can still use the charts they just will not get updated. Updating is simply agreeing to the download of new updates and it all takes place for you. Local users can send in updates as well so quite often the depth measurements are augmented by users from their equipment so get the latest picture if you trust those readings. Being vector based you do not get the map switching to different charts that you get with raster charts but I do like the raster charts ability to display detail at a higher zoom level.
With the yearly update you get some extra facilities. If you have a WiFi output from your sensor instruments you can display these on the chart. I have shown in the picture the SOG and depth and where the boat is heading. What is not shown is the most useful which are AIS details ( mine come from the radio).
I also like the tidal streams and tide height that you get with the package. I have tried other packages and the Imray one gets close but I keep coming back to this package. What it does not have is what AngelNav has which is the course to steer calculation so hoping AngelNav has an Android release soon otherwise it is back to paper for that option. Navigation Calculator Android app does do this for you.
Hope this helps.