Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Julian Swindell on 18 Jun 2012, 08:32
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I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting this, but do we really get any advantage from our mizzen sails? I spent yesterday charging in and out of Poole Harbour on my BayCruiser. When I left my last anchorage, I had decided to stow the mizzen there so that I would have less to do on the mooring. Sailing back with just the main and jib was not just as fast, but dare I say it, even faster and lighter on the helm. She also steered herself on a run beautifully, which she won't do on a run witht he mizzen up. What are teh arguments for me not just leaving the mizzen off? I know the bigger BayCruisers don't have them in the first place.
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To be honest I haven't a clue having only really sailed a wayfairer. It has been suggested to me to not bother with the mizzen for my maiden voyage as it can cause problems tacking.
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The mizzen is there to make sure that the centre of effort of the sails stays abaft the centre of lateral resistance of the boat (which is more or less where the centreboard is), depending on trim.
This gives the boat "weather helm", a tendency to turn into the wind. A boat should have a small amount of weather helm.
If the centre of effort is too far forward, as it could be with no mizzen, then in a gust, rather than tending to turn into the wind and spilling it from the sails, the boat will turn away from the wind, power up and capsize. This condition is called "lee helm" and is generally considered a very bad thing.
The Wayfarer rig was designed to put the centre of effort in the right place for that boat - considering the position of the single mast, foils, and the length of the boom (which as I recall comes back to the transom, more or less). Matt's 2-masted "kawl" rig is also designed to put the COE in the right place, with or without the mainsail. Without a mizzen I think you risk making the boat unmanageable when going to windward.
I've only sailed one boat with a mizzen - Matt's BR17. Tacking was a doddle - the mizzen looks after itself, as does the jib.
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Just to stoke the idea further, on a few occasions where I have known that I am going to be beating for a long distance I have stowed the mizzen and just done it with jib and main. The mizzen does look after itself, but without it I can actually point closer to the wind, which speeds things up and reduces the number of tacks.
The other odd thing I do is when I am sailing straight down wind for a significant time, I furl the jib and just concentrate on keeping the main and mizzen filled. It sounds daft, but if I try to keep the jib filled, or even goose winged, I actually loose power from the main because the poor thing feels neglected. A spinnaker would be an obvious answer, but I don't have one and don't fancy using one single handed. I have a standard non-self tacking jib. I think with the self tacker it would be much easier to goose wing.
Where I do use the mizzen is tacking in light winds, where over sheeting the mizzen can help me through the eye of the wind. And it helps point the boat upwind when reefing, raising sail etc. plus it looks very pretty. I am not planning to get rid of it any time soon.
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Julian,
Interesting that you query the requirement for a mizzen, I have been asking myself the same question - must be a BayCruiser20 thing :)
My own thoughts are:
++Pros++
+ Great in very heavy weather when you can sail with just jib and mizzen - I see this as a major safety feature.
+ Good, sheeted hard in, for keeping head to wind when raising lowering mainsail.
+ Useful in light airs, especially when close hauled, when you want every square inch of canvas.
--Cons--
- A hindrance in strong winds where it can lead to excessive weather helm.
- A nuisance when doing rapid, close quarters manoeuvring (e.g in a busy harbour area) - just gets in the way.
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I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting this, but do we really get any advantage from our mizzen sails?
Heresy! I hear they still burn people at the stake in Gwbert for talk like that! ;)
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Well I think its mizzen up for me.
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I knew someone would want to throw me to the consuming flames for such a suggestion.
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Sorry, Julian, I just had to make that comment!
My understanding has always been what Brian and Anthony described so it's interesting you can point higher without the mizzen. My Dabber definitely pointed higher with the mizzen and small mizzen adjustments made a noticeable difference to how it sailed. I need more time on the water with the BRe to say how the mizzen effects that.
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All that I said about CLR and COE is a simplification. There is another factor which is the turning effect (into the wind) of the heeled hull once it is moving forward. All boats in my experience, from Laser to Feeling 326, do this. I suspect this may be the reason Brian is finding excessive weather helm in strong winds, because there's no reason for the COE or CLR to have moved.
Dinghies are meant to be sailed flat. Heeling over 10 or 20 degrees to leeward looks cool and feels comfy, but is usually slower in anything but the lightest of winds. One of the reasons is that you have to apply more rudder to counteract the turning effect of heeling the boat.
(The only time one might deliberately heel to leeward is in a very light drifter - it encourages the sails to stay in the right shape, keeps the boom on the right side of the boat, and reduces the wetted area, which is the main source of drag at low speeds.)
In very strong winds it may be possible to go to windward under jib alone. However, you do have to bear away a lot to get the boat moving when you tack, and you probably have to keep the boat heeled away from the wind, so that the heeled hull cancels any lee helm.
Sadly I'll be another year or before I can try this out for myself. Happy sailing, with or without a mizzen.!
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I love it. This is what the this site is all about. As a researcher I have spent my life questioning the dogma.
This is my view for what it is worth.
1) The mizzen is very good for tacking. Use it like the rudder on the tail of an plane, by pulling it to windward and you can spin round. Very useful when tacking up a river like the Broads.
2) when trimmed properly it is very good for balancing the force of the sails.
3) when it is blowing a bit and the wife is on board we often sail with the jib and mizzen. It is very stable but still whizzes along.
4) A problem with the BR is that it is very shallow footed so the bows easily blow off to windward. The mizzen properly trimmed counts this a bit.
4) It makes the boat look pretty and gets admiring glances.
Having said all that I have never tried sailing without it. I will now try and research the project!
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I had a Drascombe Dabber for many years, and she really did need her mizzen to sail well. But I think that was more due to the main sail being a loose footed lug rather than a boomed Bermudan/Gunter. I read that even Ian Oughtred thinks his Caledonian yawl sails better as a sloop rig, and he offers such a rig as an option.
I don't know the theory, but many designers say that the sloop/cutter is the most efficient rig for beating to windward. What I think is happening on my own boat is that when the jib and main are trimmed for best shape on a beat, the main back-winds the mizzen slightly, making it flutter. I cure this by over-sheeting the mizzen, but I suspect that actually increases the drag of the mizzen to the extent that it cancels out any additional drive the little sail produces. I might beat best by leaving the mizzen fluttering, but I hate fluttering sails, so I eventually dowse it altogether, and that is how I found that I can actually sail closer to the wind without it.
I have doubts too, dare I say, about the ultimate safety of the jib/mizzen strong wind rig, which is often extolled. I have used it many times and it works, but only really if the wind is in a cooperative direction. If you have to beat against the wind, the two little sails can't point you close enough or get you through any waves. Next time I am in that situation, I am planning to try a double reefed main with both jib and mizzen furled. That may lean more, but I think the improvement in control might be worth it. (If you don't hear any more from me it probably means I was wrong...)
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I've never sailed with a mizzen, so am not really qualified to comment. With reference to CLR and COE, Anthony, is it not also the case that the usual calculations, diagrams etc refer to keel boats, which are usually larger and in which the CLR doesn't move much? - whereas in a centreboard boat, especially one as small as a dinghy (where do dinghies end, sizewise?), the extent to which the board is down, and the distribution of the weight of crew, can move the CLR fore or aft appreciably.
All this water ballast stuff you BR and BC guys go in for is another variable in this respect, surely.
I have not-very-close relatives-by-marriage (with whom we haven't been in touch for a while) who used to race Fireballs quite fanatically, and then got a holiday pad near Salcombe and switched to Salcombe Yawls. These are are about 18ft, traditional clinker (there is a GRP variant called a Devon Yawl, I believe), and they have a pocket handkerchief mizzen perched on the transom - almost comically small, actually. I believe there are very strictly applied class rules to the effect that the mizzen must always be set when racing. It would be interesting to get their views on mizzens! I'll see what I can do.
Michael
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The theory and diagrams apply to all sailing boats, but with a dinghy or dayboat there is more that can be done to move the CLR. The theory is taught on RYA courses for both dinghies and yachts.
On most dinghies the CLR is as far forward as possible with the CB fully down and the boat trimmed down by the bow. This also moves the COE forward since the top of the masts rotate forward as the boat is trimmed down by the bow. The pointy end digs in to the water more than the flat end. But the Storm is pointy at both ends so it may be that trim doesn't have much effect.
Raising the CB a little doesn't decrease the area all that much but it does swing the centre of the board back by 6 inches or so. That may be a convenient cure for excessive weather helm, but beware any loss of pointing ability.
You can also move the COE in your sails forward by tightening the luff (downhaul, Cunningham) and the outhaul. Not doing this in strong winds can allow the position of the curved part of the canvas to move away from the mast.
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“Mizzens, eh? Not worth the sticks and string!”
Someone of an earlier generation said this about the big racing yawls on the Med circuit, I think . I don't agree. Perhaps for out-and-out speed he was right but there are other considerations, most of which have been mentioned here - or elsewhere on this Forum.
I have found a remarkable difference in the handling of two Lug and Mizzen boats, my CBL “Four Sisters” and a recent acquisition, my Deben Lugger Hybrid “Wabi” . No doubt the BR20, Storm 17, Bj 17 and others have their own quirks. Differences of CLR and CE apart the main influence seems to be to do with the relative size of the mizzen and the mainsail. “Wabi” with a relatively small mizzen, sails happily to windward under jib and mizzen and is equally comfortable with just the main (balanced Lug) sail. With main and mizzen in, say, F5 there is an increasing amount of weather helm.
“Four Sisters” suffers from this, too, but is less than happy under main alone. With the windage on the cabin and only the relatively large mizzen set she will actually creep up to a mooring the right conditions, though. Looks a bit weird, I’m told, but it works. The larger mizzen allows a few other tricks, too. Sailing backwards with just the mizzen set and the sprit boom pulled back over the cockpit, 180 deg to its normal place, for example(useful in confined spaces) and best of all, giving the ability to yank in the mizzen tight, let the mainsheet go and sit dead head to wind taking whatever the sea throws at her - like a duck. “Wabi” despite having no cabin windage to worry about, won’t do this. The “Tail fin” effect from the smaller mizzen isn’t enough to overcome the drag of that dirty great mainsail flogging about. She is happier, and quieter, moving slowly forward with a bit of wind in her mainsail, taking the seas at an angle. Drop the main and you can do the duck thing more successfully. Possibly the underwater profile and massive “barn door” rudder come into play, too. Both boats work better in most conditions with the mizzen but my experience agrees with Julian’s where running down wind is concerned. In anything around F4 and above you have to watch a big mizzen like a hawk to avoid a nasty, skidding broach. I’ve modified “ Four Sisters” with a species of roller furling gear ( a bit of rope wound round the mizzen mast and a low friction pad at the masts foot) so that I can get rid of it as quickly as possible when required, without taking my eye off the mainsail and following seas.
The main thing is to get to know what your boat (and you) can do with various combinations of sail so that you can have the best experience on the water, whatever the conditions.
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Do we really need mizzens...
Pardon my asking, who is "we"? We all? We BayCruiser 20s? You BayRaiders?
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Hi, Llafurio. Good to hear from you.
I took Julian to mean by "we", ...anyone with a mizzen....
We await his actual definition with interest.
By the way, Llafurio, the Deben Lugger Hybrid "Wabi" I've been banging on about has a hull shape derived from the Drascombe Driver, a marque I believe you are familiar wth. Any comments you care to make about these boats would be welcome.
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By the way, Llafurio, the Deben Lugger Hybrid "Wabi" I've been banging on about has a hull shape derived from the Drascombe Driver, a marque I believe you are familiar wth. Any comments you care to make about these boats would be welcome.
Hi Tony,
the Drascombe Driver hull was always the best of the lot, with its bilge keels it could still safely sail in just 2 ft. of water, and despite the bilge keels it could sail away from the 22ft Longboats. I really loved mine.
The Deben guys were smart to copy the Driver hull for their Lugger, but they splashed it (i.e. they used an old Driver hull to build a mould for the new Deben Luggers) and that is not comme il faut in the boatbuilding community.
And I think they missed the chance to add a waterballast system for the Deben Lugger; that could have made it a really good boat.
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....... I think they missed the chance to add a waterballast system for the Deben Lugger; that could have made it a really good boat.
I’m sure you are right about the water ballast. When made to work properly I don’t see a better option for small raid boats. As far as “Wabi” is concerned, as a prototype she was made with a heavier lay- up and feels very solid with a great feeling of stability – but still manages to ghost along in next to no wind while still standing up to full sail in 15 knot winds (better and no slower with a reef, though. 6 knots no problem.) If your Driver was like that I can see why you were a fan. I have only sailed her in sheltered waters so far and am itching to try her out in a bit of a sea. I imagine that with her weight - something over 500kg, twice that of “Four Sisters” on a shorter water line – she might punch through the waves rather than ride over them, making her a wet boat on a beat. How did the Driver behave in those conditions? The CBL finds the short chop in the Ionian difficult. It’s the waves rather than the wind that stops her sailing and has me reaching for the outboard.
Re:- “Splashing it...” surely you need some kind of an OK from the John Watkinson Estate?
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... I imagine that with her weight - something over 500kg, twice that of “Four Sisters” on a shorter water line – she might punch through the waves rather than ride over them, making her a wet boat on a beat.
Re:- “Splashing it...” surely you need some kind of an OK from the John Watkinson Estate?
Over 500 kgs?? -OH SH....! The original Driver was 360 kgs, including an inboard engine.
Only goes to show that taking an old hull from the seventies and then trying to make that fit for todays RCD / ISO does never work, there is only so much you can do to an old hull. All current Drascombes and Devons have that problem BTW. Hugely overweight the whole lot through all that retrofilling with foam.
Splashing -molding off another mans hull design- , every decent mind assumes one would have to ask permission from the copyright holder.
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Perhaps I should, in fairness, mention that "Wabi" is a prototype (the name Wabi loosly translates as 'rough and ready' from the Japanese, apparently) and the real, production Deben Luggers only weigh 360kg according to Anglia Yachts. (That's still 100kg more that a CBL in EP - and doesn't include an inboard engine) The weight is probably due to the replacement of bilge keels with a 10mm thick galvanised centreplate. Puts the weight where you want it - but returns us to the advantages of the Bayraider's waterballast.
I'm more than happy with the Centurian Tank-like lay-up of "Wabi", though. Just what I need for a boat that's going to be left in a Greek αποθήκη most of its life.....and used by my daughters!
I do wish that the mizzen would hold her head to wind a bit better - useful when hauling nets over the foredeck - which is what she might well be doing when us tourists have gone home!
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“Mizzens, eh? Not worth the sticks and string!”
I’ve modified “ Four Sisters” with a species of roller furling gear ( a bit of rope wound round the mizzen mast and a low friction pad at the masts foot) so that I can get rid of it as quickly as possible when required, without taking my eye off the mainsail and following seas.
Tony,
Can you provide a bit more detail on your Mizzen furling mechansim? I am thinking of implementing something similar on my BC20 but have not been able to come up with a workable solution so far.
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Hi, Brian.
Not sure this would work on the BR 20. Your mizzen is stepped above the cranked tiller arrangement isn’t it? On the Storm series (from which the CBL is derived) the mizzen is supported in two places with a 30-40cm gap between. The mast sits on a hard wood pad, which, over the years, has had circular groove worn into it by the hollow end of the carbon fibre spar.
Normally to furl the mizzen you unhook the snotter from the sprit boom, which you rest on your shoulder while you grind away, twisting the mast round and round to wind the sail around the mast. This take a couple of minutes at best. The boom is retained at the clew so when the sail’s all in I lash the boom to the mast (on top of the furled sail, obviously) with a bit of shock cord. This is nice and tidy and stops the sail from coming unfurled at an awkward moment.
On one occasion I tied the bailer to the mizzen mast and didn’t notice that it wound itself around the mast as I furled the sail. In annoyance I gave the thing a hefty tug and promptly spun the mast and half unfurled the sail - causing all sorts of mayhem! A minor bit of lateral thinking had a rope coiling itself around the mast the other way around as the mizzen sail is wound out. Pulling on said rope spins the mast and furls the sail in one action. Simple!
To make it easier you need a friction free pivot on the mast heel – I use a golf ball glued into place. ( One or two keep turning up every time I dig the garden – previous house owner must have pinged loads of ‘em into the rough!) A fairlead and jam cleat help stop the rope collapsing into a knotted mess at the foot of the mast – but make sure the rope can’t cleat itself off when you are trying to unfurl the sail.
Hope the quick sketch makes everything clear.
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When we say "we" we are of course refering just to ourselves.
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Love the art work, Tony :)
On the BC 20 the mizzen is held in a channel/case below aft deck level, so unfortunately this type of arrangement isn't an option.
I am thinking along the lines of a continuous loop system at deck level. I will let you know if anything comes of it.
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Love the art work, Tony :)
Here's one I did earlier. Can you tell what is yet?
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I had a Drascombe Dabber for many years, and she really did need her mizzen to sail well. But I think that was more due to the main sail being a loose footed lug rather than a boomed Bermudan/Gunter. I read that even Ian Oughtred thinks his Caledonian yawl sails better as a sloop rig, and he offers such a rig as an option.
I don't know the theory, but many designers say that the sloop/cutter is the most efficient rig for beating to windward. What I think is happening on my own boat is that when the jib and main are trimmed for best shape on a beat, the main back-winds the mizzen slightly, making it flutter. I cure this by over-sheeting the mizzen, but I suspect that actually increases the drag of the mizzen to the extent that it cancels out any additional drive the little sail produces. I might beat best by leaving the mizzen fluttering, but I hate fluttering sails, so I eventually dowse it altogether, and that is how I found that I can actually sail closer to the wind without it.
I have doubts too, dare I say, about the ultimate safety of the jib/mizzen strong wind rig, which is often extolled. I have used it many times and it works, but only really if the wind is in a cooperative direction. If you have to beat against the wind, the two little sails can't point you close enough or get you through any waves. Next time I am in that situation, I am planning to try a double reefed main with both jib and mizzen furled. That may lean more, but I think the improvement in control might be worth it. (If you don't hear any more from me it probably means I was wrong...)
I've been and tried it. Down at Poole today. Overcast and strong winds, F5-6. I motored upwind to a nice sheltered corner and then used the double reefed main to sail around the islands. She storms along on a run beautifully at around 5kts. On a reach, the helm is a bit heavy, but not too bad. She will tack through the wind, but can't sail close at all, so I could make no ground to windward. She never leant too much or felt over powered. Gybing was interesting... Takes about a millisecond. Again, no problems doing it, but you really wouldn't want your head in the way of the boom. An unintended gybe would be dangerous to crew, but I don't think would stress the rig too much. For happy gybing I would say that the jib/mizzen rig is probably a better one in a strong wind. It would be interesting to try her with a storm jib, but basically, when that is the best rig for the conditions, I want to be home in bed.
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.....It would be interesting to try her with a storm jib, but basically, when that is the best rig for the conditions, I want to be home in bed.
I'm with you, brother!
(Hmmm. That reads badly. What I mean is that I agree with the sentiment expressed.)
Small boats like ours (RCD Cat. C) have no business being out in a storm - unless the family needs the insurance money, of course.
Some will say that a well designed boat (like ours) prepared by an experienced, capable crew (that lets me out, then) should be able to cope with storm conditions if necessary. I'm sure they are right.....
but to increase the chances of survival " ....we're gonna need a bigger boat..."
I like to stay clear of strong winds and rough water.
Weather forecasts?
View with deep suspicion.
Passage plans?
Show evidence of negative thinking and a plethora of alternative routes (What course can I hold if the wind backs unexpectedly - what if the rudder drops off? Etc.)
Incedentally, gybing with a balanced lug is a much more sedate experience than with other fore and aft rigs. Its the bit of the sail infront of the mast that calms everything down. Playing the mainsheet helps.. but make sure - especially with multiple purchases - that it can run freely when you want it to, to avoid unpleasantness.
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Having had trouble trying to reef the mizzen while other things are happening,Tony and Brian inspired me to retire to the shed and ponder the suggested remedy of some form of roller reefing.
I did try Tony's straight forward string wrap above the partners but there was not much control over where string went when deploying the sail, and it tended to jam in the partners.
Eventually got the lathe out and turned up a small mahogany reel to fit the lower part of the mast as in photo and then a button to fit the base. This worked fine, tried a wire rope guide around the mast, but it did not always turn freely,decided the wooden one pictured worked well. This is fitted in a socket in the support and comes out with the mizzen.
I hope that this is useful as I have not tried it in any thing but a zephyr, we have not had anything stronger for weeks.
How did your continuous loop system go Brian?
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Well done Martyn Miles!
(I've gotta get me a lathe !)
I like the casual way you say "I turned up a reel and a button from mahogany". That’s craftmanship, that is!
It took me AGES to jam a golf ball more or less central in the mast base - and it still drops out every time I lift out the mast. Suppose I'm just a natural bodger, and the worlds leading consumer of Duck Tape.
You talk of roller reefing....?
My method (such as it is) has the sail either set or furled - roller furling, in other words.
Have you a way of reducing the sails working area successfully while sailing? i.e. deploying the sail in part.
How do you stop the thing unfurling completely? Does the sail shape serve?
In strong winds under jib and mizzen a 10% reduction in mizzen area would help reduce weather helm. The CBL's mizzen is quite a large sail* compared to the jib and as things are I have to play the mizzen like a mainsheet - dumping it in the gusts, etc. - but the sheeting position (a jammer on the tiller ) is awkward to use in this way. Proper reefing would be great!
* “Llafurio” thinks my mizzen is just too large for the boat. He might well be right but I am reluctant to reduce its area permanently, it’s such a powerful driving sail in average and light winds.
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Interesting to see the ideas for rotating the mast to furl the mizzen completely and i'm going to try and implement on my bayraider. I was pondering how to overcome the problem of reefing the mizzen with the current boom and snotter arrangement.
Idea one would be fix rope loops perhaps two using bullseyes on the existing wood boom, the outhall could be guided through the relevant loop to pull the clew tight depending on amount of reef. To reduce messing about feeding the sheet through the loop a snap shackle or similar could be used.
Idea 2 would be to change the wooden boom for something telscopic so the sheet arrangements and snotter stay as is, thinking out aloud the tiller extender type would be good where you just twist, adjust and lock to the desired length. This would provide a very flexible reefing arrangement.
Idea 3 perhaps a boom which could be adjusted using the spring pin and hole arrangement you see on tent poles.
I will think about this more but i thought it worth floating the idea for comment.
Peter
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I have doubts that reefing the mizzen on a Bayboat is really worth the candle. If you look at the sail plan overall, it is such a small sail that reducing it by say 50% would barely be noticeable compared to everything else that is throwing the boat around when the wind is strong. I think if you feel that the mizzen is overpowering the stern of the boat, you just want it off. It may be different on the Cardigan Bay Lugger as I think the mizzen is much larger in proportion, so does have a serious influence on balance. (See photos below)
What I have been interested in is a way of quickly dousing the mizzen completely, which a roller might do, but I am more interested in the idea of brailing lines to just pull it tight into the mast. The idea would be to unship the sprit, haul in and cleat the brail and the sail area is gone. Has anyone tried this? I have seen it done on loose footed mizzens on Drascombes, but not on a sprit boomed mizzen. The only modification needed would be a cringle on the luff of the sail for the line to go through, plus a cleat or hook on the mast.
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How about the late Hans Vandersmissen description of using the mizen to sail backwards between finger pontoons or while cooking a meal down below?
best wishes
Simon
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What would happen if the spar was lifted back to the mast, scandalising the sail (I think)?
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Thanks Tony,
Sorry I think in my enthusiasm I got reefing and furling mixed up, I was really talking about furling as my partner was having trouble furling the mizzen while I took care of the main. I will have to give some thought to reefing although as Julian says it is probably not worth it, will let you know if I come up with a solution. Finding a position for the snotter might be the crux as Peter says.
Martyn
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What would happen if the spar was lifted back to the mast, scandalising the sail (I think)?
Hi, Simon.
It could work on a small mizzen and does work, on a huge scale, with Thames barges - who do it all the time. However, I've tried this on "Four Sisters" and you end up, at best, with a nasty flappy bit waving about in the breeze and, at worse, the damn thing balloons out, throwing the boat around and threatening to rip itself to bits. Also, to make the boom safe I have to stand up to the mizzen mast and use both hands. Not good in the usual circumstances for wanting the mizzen away in a hurry ! With roller furling you just release the snotter and yank the furling line. Job done!
As far as roller reefing goes Julian is probably right for the BR etc. Not worth the fuss. For the CBL and other “Storm” based boats it could well prove a benefit (assuming a decent sail shape can be kept) but implementing it with a sprit boom, however you rig it, is not easy! I’ve even tried a reefing claw (the sort of thing they used to have on roller reefed mainsails in the 60’s) but the weight of it (a home-made test piece made from plastic pipe, split lengthways) just pulled the boom down the mast, ruining the sail shape. Glad I didn’t invest in an expensive bronze one. It would have needed a sky hook !
The simplest answer is to lose the boom altogether and sheet the mizzen to a dirty great long bumkin. See below, as implemented by Nigel Irens. No need for mizzen reefing on this boat.
NB
“Romilly” is a beautiful boat and sails like a witch but I don’t think you’d want to trail it any distance with a ‘reasonably priced car’. Stick with the water ballast, guys !
Hmmm. I wonder what a 23 foot BayRaider Expedition would look like? It would only take a small Lottery Funding grant to find out......
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Tony,
Ah!!!! Someone else who has dreamed of a Romilly; my wife even said I could have one :-) but then I mentioned the truck that would be required to tow her etc etc.
Its such a long time since I sailed my Bay Raider that I can't remember how I furl the mizen, I think that I just rotate the mast by hand but I shall investigate fitting some form of furling line.
I take your point about the sail ballooning if the boom is lifted to the mast.
best wishes
Simon
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Thanks Tony,
Sorry I think in my enthusiasm I got reefing and furling mixed up, I was really talking about furling as my partner was having trouble furling the mizzen while I took care of the main. I will have to give some thought to reefing although as Julian says it is probably not worth it, will let you know if I come up with a solution. Finding a position for the snotter might be the crux as Peter says.
Martyn
I thought furling the mizzen was one of the easy bits. I stand in front of the mizzen with a foot either side of the well and unhitch the sheets, lift the mizzen pole vertically with the loose end upwards next to the mast and then wrap it around the mast tightly holding the mizzen boom upright until it is all tightly furled. I then put on two bungy ties. One near the top of the mizzen boom and one at the bottom. It is all neat and tidy. I often lower the main so the gaff is horizontal and use the top tie on the mizzen to also secure the gaff to the mizzen while I furl the main.
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This thread has been comatose for several years but I think that it's worth reviving. Mainly because Wooderz of Hyde Sails, who was at the Mylor raid earlier in the week, was reported to have said that the mizzen really doesn't help to drive the boat to windward on a beat. In fact, it produces drag and would be better off furled, allegedly. I think he was referring specifically to the BayRaider.
Reading back through the posts of yesteryear, there seems to be general agreement that mizzens have all sorts of useful attributes. For me recently, sailing under just jib and mizzen around most of Mull (and mostly downwind) was a revelation - a comfortable and fairly severe form of reefing. There's also its use for weathercocking when raising and lowering the mainsail and heaving to; as an aircraft-style rudder for moving on to the opposite tack; to provide weather helm; to divide up the overall sail area into smaller and more easily handled pieces; for sailing backwards in tight spots; and last but not necessarily least, for good looks and admiring glances.
Yet if what Wooderz is reported to have said is correct, I did not see a single Swallow beating to windward with a furled mizzen this week. Admittedly the winds were fairly fickle and perhaps to test the proposition, it needs clean winds on long beats out at sea, with and without the mizzen. Unless you've put in one of the clever furling mechanisms described above, it would have been too much of a faff when racing to have been furling and unfurling the mizzen for what might be only a tiny theoretical advantage on short beats in a narrow estuary like the Fal.
What do the offshore cruising types think? Furl the mizzen on long beats for better progress to windward or leave well alone? Is there any evidence one way or the other? Julian is clear that furling helps the BC20 to windward but what about BayRaiders?
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Halfway between the Helford River and the Fal estuary yesterday, we had a little gear failure. I could have patched things up but furled the mizzen instead. We made good progress upwind to Mylor but with some lee helm.
I don't know whether we went faster or slower.
John
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I think it was in conversation with me that Wooderz made the comment about mizzens not helping when going upwind. At the time we were watching two of the fleet tacking upwind and it was clear that their mizzens were not setting well and did not look to be contributing. I later mentioned Wooderz's comment to Matt and he pointed out that the furled mizzen on its mast would itself create a lot of drag and, if one really wanted to benefit from furling the mizzen, then one should also dismount and stow the mizzen mast.
As suggested by Julian Swindell, I quite often sail up wind with the mizzen furled. However my feeling is that, while the mizzen does produce some drive (if sheeted hard), in strongish winds (particularly with the main reefed) the BC20 has more weather helm than I like. Furling the mizzen (and lifting the centreboard a little) makes the boat better balanced. That's why I do it.
But I would not be without the ability to use the mizzen. At the Raid's last evening meal, Nick mentioned recently seeing me on the Beaulieu River. Winds that day were upper force 5, gusting 6. Seatern ran back to Calshot and then reached up Southampton Water under jib and mizzen at between 5 and 6 knots (admittedly with help from the flood tide). In strong winds the BC20 is very comfortable under jib and mizzen including when beating upwind. I've sailed Seatern that way in upper force 6, gusting 7, and had I been using a double reefed main I'd have been spilling wind and/or pinching up all the time.
To make furling the mizzen quicker, Seatern has a simple furling drum (photo attached). Details of making it are on my blog at http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/diary_2015_june.php - look at the 7th June entry.
Peter
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This has been really useful reading as I have been trying to get the hang of sailing with a mizzen. For the most part I find it helpful for all the reasons mentioned previously. The one concern I had was when sailing close hauled I have found that to get the mizzen to fill one has to over sheet it and in “a good breeze” this can lead to significant weather helm. It appears that others find this to be the case as well.
Initially I thought the issue with the mizzen was that I could not flatten the sail because of the outhaul rope feeding through a hole in the boom meaning there was too much friction in “a good breeze” to get enough tension on it. However the other day I had a good look at the mizzen sail set up and it appears the sail has a lot of camber and no amount of tensioning on out haul or down haul will take out. I am wondering if this is a contributing factor to the mizzen flapping when sailing close hauled.
Regards,
Bob
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...no amount of tensioning on out haul or down haul will take out. I am wondering if this is a contributing factor to the mizzen flapping when sailing close hauled.
one other thing to check is that the rope eye ("snotter"?) that holds the inboard end of the mizzen boom ("sprit"?) to the mast is as high up as it can go - i.e. just under the bottom of the mizzen tube ("appropriate nautical term"?) which goes over the mast. That, together with the tension in the mizzen luff, keeps the sail relatively flat.
Peter
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The mizzen on the BRs and BRes can indeed attract criticism for being inefficient during tacking up. It crinkles and flaps. The only reason is the mechanically inefficient SwB standard mizzen sheeting arrangement. There is a solution long known.:
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For what its worth, our BC26 sails quite well on jib alone in a blow on all points of sail. Indeed, seeing a jib only upwind in a blow is not uncommon for small cruisers in our area.
I wouldn't short tack between rows of moored boats on jib alone, though, as a boat length or two is required to get on course and up to speed and get the keel providing lift after a tack. Every other situation is fine with near hull speed achieved in about 20-22kn AWS upwind and a moderate chop. When required the sail can be furled at short notice.
As an earlier contributor said, when a cruiser heels it generally wants to round up (that's one way of steering a dinghy without a rudder) so with jib only the CoE is further forward and counteracts this and the helm feels near normal once up to speed.
In practice, wind speed is not a problem - it's the sea-state that comes with it.
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I've only had my BRe just over a year and already I'm finding its rig seems so versatile that I can't imagine going back to a basic sloop rig. I like the ability to drop the main and continue under jib and mizzen if it blows up or I want to sail along gently on a nice day and eat my sandwiches. I like the ability to keep the mizzen up at anchor so she keeps wind rode. Very nice then to put the canopy up and enjoy the sheltered cockpit. Peter Taylor's great photo of the boats anchored up at St. Anthony's Head from the Mylor 2017 thread clearly shows some of the boats are wondering around their anchors except the two with their mizzens set - wind direction clearly shown by the ensign flying on one of them! I like the way with the mizzen sheeted in you can roll up the jib and the boat stays nicely into the wind while you get the main up or down or put a reef in. I think the fully battened main of the BRe helps here as you can heave-to head to wind (jibless) without the main flapping about so much. I like the way in light or heavy airs you can yank the mizzen sheet to pay off if you get in irons.
In the BRe I haven't noticed any backwinding of the mizzen by the mainsail, as described above for a BC20. I think this is because the BRe seems to have a much shorter main boom, giving a much larger slot. Another nice feature of the mizzen rig - a short manageable main boom length, easier for reefing etc.
But Wooderz does have a point that we need to ensure the mizzen is setting properly on the beat. I've found it's very easy after a tack to pull the windward mizzen sheet in and forget about the leeward one. The leeward sheet acts like a kicker and has to be pulled in to the power up the mizzen. Equally the leeward sheet can be eased to depower the mizzen if too much weather helm builds up but often the preferred solution is to lift the centerboard up a little to restore a nice balance, especially in a good breeze.
At the Mylor Rally Wooderz also raised the point that one or two of the boats had their masts raked forward of the vertical - I know I need to adjust mine back a bit; but that should be a topic for a separate thread!
Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'
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I found this article about trimming a mizzen.
https://www.skippertips.com/members/477.cfm
'Note how the apparent wind changes direction as it progresses from the headsail back to the mainsail, and then back to the mizzen sail.
Each sail must be trimmed a bit more toward the centerline. By the time the apparent wind arrives at the mizzen sail, you'll need to trim the mizzen boom almost to the centerline! This keeps the boat on her feet and driving ahead like a hot-blooded stallion.'
So it made me wonder whether the general opinion that mizzens are useless when beating is because people have been sailing with the mains over trimmed.
I've been sailing according to this idea and it works very well, it seems that the main acts like a jib to the mizzen.
The only thing is that on my boat, with the jib drawing nicely and the mizzen in tight I get too much weather helm so I have to ease it quite a bit which I'm sure must affect my pointing.
So I was wondering whether I need a larger jib or a smaller mizzen, what do you think?
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Thanks for the article Ged. I have always sailed my Bay raider with the following trim idea:
Jib - tight
Main - tighter
Mizzen - tightest.
Which seems to follow the advice in the article .
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From the BR20 manual (2010):
"The ketch rig is best sailed with the jib out the most, the main in a little more and the mizzen in the tightest."
If you're sailing with a flying jib on a bowsprit ahead of the self-tacking jib, then that helps counteract some of the weather helm from the sheeted-in mizzen. I've noticed that the flying jib works better if the self-tacker is sheeted in more than usual. The main and mizzen seem to continue to work as normal with this arrangement. However, if you're sailing hard on the wind, the flying jib normally needs furling away (it works best off the wind), in which case you're back to weather helm from the mizzen.
Later BRe's with Mk2 jibs on a bowsprit have a larger foresail area. Do they experience much weather helm?
There have been a few posts in the past about reefing and/or part furling the mizzen.
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Ah, so it's not just me then.
I think I'll start a separate weather helm thread.
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If you have a tired old mizzen going spare and are repeatedly faced with a long beat to windward with heavy weather helm (or a long time on board riding at anchor), you could usefully recycle the old sail by reducing it significantly in size. Cut off quite a lot of the bottom, put in a cringle at the new clew, slit the luff pocket up the middle and sew in some Velcro straps all the way up. To install, Velcro the sail around the existing furled full-sized mizzen and rig with the mizzen boom as usual but with some extra string to the new clew cringle. Voilà - a less powerful and possibly less flappy (when at anchor) mizzen. You would have to put in seams along the new foot and up each side of the opened up luff pocket. Just a serving suggestion....
If you're a cheapskate and want to read the article that Ged has found but don't want to pay anything, Google "ketch trimming tips". The article should be the first one on the list and for some reason, this route in is free. The suggestions about heaving to are interesting.
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I found the article through an image search, I didn't realise the link I posted needed to be paid for.
It's there for free anyway.
I don't have an old mizzen and mine laces onto the mast, I think it would be a good idea to try and reef it to see if it helps with the balance but I can't think of an easy way, does anybody have an old one that's surplus to requirements?
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This is another article I've found useful, I don't know if it's been posted on here before... and definitely free this time!
http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm
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I thought I'd revive this old thread because I recently found what, for me, was a new use for the mizzen!
On the 6th August I was in the western Solent in glassy calm to very light winds. Seatern was doing just over 2 kts over the ground because she was drifting westwards on the ebbing tide.
However in calm conditions, drifting at two kts means that you have 2kts of apparent wind. The problem is, you have no steerage way. However you do have the mizzen to use as a "tail-fin rudder".
I'm not sure how much drive I got from exploiting the apparent wind. However it was enough that, using the mizzen, I was able to steer Seatern so as to at least keep her pointed in the correct direction (i.e. beating) relative to the apparent wind. Since the current was running towards the southwest, and any puffs of "real" wind were from the southwest, I could readily exploit what little wind came along.
And yes, I know you can steer a sloop rig without using a rudder if you get things balanced, but in light winds that's near impossible (at least for my range of skills). Using the mizzen to steer (and with the ballast tanks empty), I was able to keep Seatern ghosting along in otherwise near flat calm conditions.
And using the mizzen gave me something to do!
Peter
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First time I have been back on the forum for a long time. Not sure why, but things move on I suppose. I was interested in Peter's revival of this thread, which I started a long time ago. I am a fan of the mizzen, for many of the reasons discussed. My favourite use, apart from just standing at the back and leaning against it on a gentle reach, is getting away from a near shore anchorage single handed. I often anchor just off the beach either inside or outside Poole Harbour. Regardless of wind direction, when I haul up the anchor, the impetuous of pulling in the anchor quickly, which you need to do on your own, seems to set me sailing straight for the beach. I have had near leeshore disasters on several occasions. I've discovered that if I set the main, not too hard, and set the mizzen, pulled right over to the appropriate side, when the anchor comes up, the mizzen stops the boat and then pushes the back around so that the main just catches the wind and sails me off as I clamber back to the cockpit. The tricky bit is judging the "appropriate side" which I always have to think hard about. Get it wrong and you're on the beach. Get it right, and you will have a very smooth departure.