Swallow Yachts Association
Swallow Yachts Forum => Sailing and Events => Topic started by: Jonathan Stuart on 17 Jun 2014, 12:11
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This area of the forum is for users to post topics about going sailing and related events. In addition to posts about rallies, events and boat shows, etc, this is the place to announce, for example, where you're going sailing this weekend and invite others to join you.
By suggesting or joining an event arranged through this website you agree, without exception, to the spirit and terms detailed in this post in addition to the website's terms (see http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=940) which you have already agreed to by using this website and forum.
Approach and Responsibilities
Any sailing organised via this forum or website, or run under the website's name, is done in the following spirit: "While we may sail with company, we always sail alone and each captain is responsible for their actions, their boat and any crew".
That does not absolve others from all responsibilities to you (and vice versa) - we all rightly have a duty not to inflict damage on others and in some circumstances we may have a duty of care, and an individual may be negligent if those duties are breached.
But those attending, organising, coordinating or contributing to events agree that, unless specified otherwise in writing:
- organisers and other participants do not take on a greater responsibility than if, for example, you both independently and coincidentally sailed together at the same location; and
- organisers do not take on a greater level of responsibility than any other participant; and
- the organisation will not be of a level to make up for any deficiencies in an individual's training, equipment or preparation; and
- organisers will not be performing assessments of the risks you (individually or as a group) may face when attending the event.
Participants may wish to consider whether a "buddy system" would be useful - this will depend on the location and nature of the sailing. Boats can be paired such that each boat "looks out" for the other - they don't need to sail together but would attempt to remain in contact such that one can raise the alarm if they have concerns about the other boat's safety. This sharing of responsibilities can improve safety and is in the wider spirit of how events are run. However, if such a system is adopted all participants must consider that they are taking on a responsibility and should make reasonable endeavours to maintain knowledge of the other boat's whereabouts - a failure to do this is more dangerous than if the buddy system isn't used at all.
Finally, and regardless of whether the buddy system is used, where there is a concern that another boat may be in trouble or need assistance you must call the emergency services without delay - they would prefer a false alarm than a delayed start to a real rescue.
Organisers
People who invite others to sail with them or suggest a "rally" are encouraged to provide information about the proposed sailing and sailing venue, e.g. launch location & facilities, costs, tides (where relevant), local hazards, etc. While individuals are responsible for performing their own research and ensuring the event is suitable given their experience, boat and equipment, etc, (see below) organisers should endeavour to help attendees given that, for example, you my know the local area better than them.
Participants
Participants are wholly responsible and liable for their conduct and all costs incurred on any events they join. Make sure you are suitably experienced, equipped, informed and insured (insurance is checked at some slipways). That's up to you and, unless organisers explicitly specify otherwise, not the responsibility of event organisers or those discussing events on this forum. If you're uncomfortable with that then please discuss this with the organiser and if in doubt don't join the event.
But, while individual responsibility has primacy, everyone attending is encouraged to support other boats and ensure they remain vigilant about other boats' capabilities, needs and locations. Supporting each other should help ensure events are safe and successful. Furthermore, while it is almost inevitable that an event will have an organiser, don't leave everything to them. If you know some useful information about the sailing venue that has not been mentioned by the organiser then please share it - the organiser is no more responsible than any other participant to share details of hazards, etc, will fellow sailors.
Negligence & Liability
What follows are just my opinions. I believe them to be accurate for English and Welsh law at the time of writing and they are given in good faith but I am no legal expert.
We should all endeavour to avoid claims of negligence against us and while organisers are potentially more liable to such claims they should not be anxious about this. It's worth reiterating what was said above: "we all rightly have a duty not to inflict damage on others and in some circumstances we may have a duty of care, and an individual may be negligent if those duties are breached" (the emphasis is mine). That's a general truth and not specific to sailing events or those organising them; so we all need to ensure our actions (or lack of) don't cause us to be negligent, both in day-to-day life and in our sailing. But the law isn't unreasonable - if you're not negligent then you should have nothing to worry about! Furthermore, by mandating individual responsibility in our Terms (see above) this should further protect organisers.
The RYA has published a very useful document that discusses this and it's worth reading the relevant sections if you are concerned about liability. Click here to read the RYA document (http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web%20Documents/Legal%20Leaflets/Clubs/Health%20and%20Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf).
This document is reassuring. In particular, the law and courts are more pragmatic and accepting of the natural risks associated with sports like sailing than many may believe. A clear message is that a common sense approach where the organiser doesn't recklessly lead others in to danger is the best approach.
What certainly can affect an organiser's liability are the planned activities and the level of "hands-on" organisation and management they undertake, i.e. are they creating or heightening a duty of care in addition to the duty (that we all have) not to inflict damage on others?
A certain level of organisation, e.g. thinking about and informing participants about potential risks and hazards specific to that event or area (as recommended above), should help minimise potential claims of negligence. That's not to say one becomes negligent by not providing such information, but supporting participants in this way will help events run smoothly and can only help organisers avoid claims of negligence if, say, a participant has an accident.
However, if organisers are more "hands-on" (to quote the document) in organising activities, or if those activities naturally bring additional dangers, e.g. organised racing, training or leading (not just sailing alongside) less experienced skippers, then there is more scope for the organiser to become negligent. That shouldn't sound alarming - it's common sense that if you do more then there's more to go wrong and organisers just need to ensure these additional activities are organised and risks properly considered bearing in mind the duty of care, etc. Again, use common sense.
Here are two extracts from the RYA document that are relevant to us and cover the pertinent points:
"Where a rally is organised by simply issuing a series of meeting places with dates and times, it is unlikely that any legal liability would be incurred by the organiser if an accident occurs either while a boat is on passage to or from a meeting place, or is at the event itself. Where on-the-water activities are organised at an event, the organiser may be liable if they are found to have organised the activities negligently."
"Many clubs without premises or valuable equipment simply exist as a point of contact for members who then organise their own social or cruising events. Thus a small class or single make owners association may organise a list of members, publish a news sheet, organise pre-arranged “meets” and arrange regular shore-based social events. However, unless any of the events involve “hands-on” management, the potential for legal liability for injury is remote, often rendering the cost of insurance unjustifiable."
In summary, while many think we live in a litigious society, where common sense was an early casualty, I think if events are organised with sensible care then organisers can enjoy their events and not be anxious about potential claims of negligence.
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Though agreeing with the conditions as stated in "Read this first" I would hope that someone would take the trouble to point out known, less obvious, dangers of the event in question. Such as the shallow areas of Lake Bala. We all have a responsibility for each other at the end of the day. I would also hope that someone would count us all out and count us all in again to ensure no one is lost at sea and goes unreported.
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Hallo again, Edwin. Good to see you at Bala.
I'm trying to be careful not stir a wasps' nest/open a can of worms here, but - whether we like it or not - the L-word can lurk (whispers - 'liability') these days unless a lightness of touch is maintained: the latter being something I think our association (note the lower case) can be proud of so far.
I belong to the Junk Rig Association, where issues were raised about 'what would happen if.....' in the context of the JRA organising what had previously been informal jollies similar to ours (some naughty types were actually provoking trouble). A medium-sized furore ensued, leading to changes in the Constitution (note the capital), virtually preventing any such gatherings happening under JRA auspices, which was Ridiculous (ditto). Actually, common sense prevailed in the setting up of an overlapping informal association (lower case) for getting informal jollies organised, in which nobody bothered about things like the L-word.
He will correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense that Jonathan is implying a light touch in all of this as far as we're concerned. And so say all of us, presumably. However, I quite agree that looking out for each other should always be an unspoken but TOP priority, wherever we gather.
Michael
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I agree with what both of you have said and in particular this is all about keeping things sensible and simple with regard to liability.
Having read Edwin's points I thought about suggesting we update the terms to say that organisers will make some attempt (exact words to be defined) to provide relevant information, etc, to attendees. But that creates some liability, i.e. if the organiser doesn't do this and an incident occurs then they are potentially liable. Do we want that? This seems a binary point and organisers either have some liability or they don't.
Then I thought I could add some words to the terms to say organisers don't have liability (as at present) but are "encouraged" to provide relevant information for events. But something that doesn't add to the terms doesn't (in my opinion) have any place in the terms. But it would be appropriate in this "Read this first" post. i.e. I add to what I wrote above and make it clear that the terms have primacy but organisers are encouraged to provide useful and relevant information and all participants are encouraged to look out for their fellow boats, etc. I will edit the first post in this thread to add these words. Please let me know whether you think that addresses the problem without creating any new ones.
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That looks better to me, I would suggest that the third more important paragraph could be highlighted in some way. capital letters or larger font perhaps. Thank you Jonathan for taking on this subject, it is an important one. Perhaps a mention of individual boat insurance would be appropriate?This is always prominent in vintage car rallies we attend!
As an aside, when I joined the local (inland) sailing club they were reluctant to let me join with such a big boat! A Storm 17 was outside there experience, only after I told them I had carried out a risk assessment on solo launch and recovery were their fears allayed. Another club refused point blank, though this could have been sorted out if I had been an electrician! New clubhouse to wire I suppose. such is life
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Good point about insurance so I have added that and have also highlighted the "serious" bits.
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Jonathon
Thankfully your reasoning on the raised points has been contained and will only formalise the general understanding of event organisers.
Having as you know organised two Rutland Water get togethers to date i have always been comfortable with the understanding that i have no legal liabilities for participants. Arranging the event, venue, rooms, meals, launch and trailer parking, general sailing information is expected as the organiser.
The ownership of “fellow boaters safety" is always a given but must remain as a non-liability issue against event organisers. Any other understanding would result in contractual disclaimer signing and i for one would not organise another event should this be the case.
Signing on and off the water with records of head counts, records of what equipment is being carried, vhf, flares, life jackets etc. would be sensible, perhaps sailing with a nominated buddy boat could perhaps be adopted, not necessarily by the organiser but a nominated person, but again with no liability attached.
Peter Cockerton
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Any other understanding would result in contractual disclaimer signing and i for one would not organise another event should this be the case.
Nor me. Let's keep it as simple as possible, otherwise we won't have events like this in the future.
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Disclaimers bring a whole raft of problems so we definitely don't want to go there. The rationale for our terms is that the organiser doesn't bear liability such that Peter and Graham, etc, continue to organise events. Hopefully the words I added to the start of this thread also stress the spirit that we hope people will show when organising and/or attending events.
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Some very valid points have been raised here, and I do believe that it would be totally unfair for the event organiser to have to take sole responsibility for the safety and welfare of the participants.
Surely the most obvious solution would be to appoint a committee to standardise the safety procedures that would be adopted across the board with a further sub committee to organise a specific event at specific locations and times. All overseen by an elected association member to take the final decision on an event actually taking place and who would be permitted to join in. Perhaps entitled 'Commodore' which would seem appropriate for such a position, assisted in the event of his absence by a 'Vice Commodore'. A trained Health and Safety advisor with appropriate training in risk management would of course be required, the costs his training incur could be covered by a small nominal fee to join the Swallow Boats Association. Further funds could be raised through the sail of Blazer badges, ties, cravats and ladies headscarfes. We will then, of course, require a Treasurer to properly oversee this expenditure and account for funds raised. The administration could be handled by an elected Secretary...You get the message!?
Am I missing something here? If I go out to sea in my boat and invite my pal to sail along with me in his boat, then we each do a separate passage plan, check weather, tides, charts etc, sea worthiness of our own boats and equipment and take full responsibility for our own actions. Yes we look out for each other in the spirit of good seamanship but still fully retain our individual responsibilities.
Surely these 'events' are merely one or two sailors going out to sea (or lake etc) and inviting their pals to come along if they want to.. Or am I just being naive?
Andy
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At the expense of tact and diplomacy (for which I'm not known anyway) I would like to state my opinion as clearly as possible. The objective of events for me is to have fun in convivial company without undue risks to health, pocket or the wider community. However, organising an event takes time and effort by the organiser. I completely support the principle that event organisers are as protected from legal liability as possible for safety, property, environmental, financial and legal risks.
In my case with regard to taking responsibility for safety etc. of participants:
- I'm not trained, qualified or insured to advise other people on risks for their sailing activities
- I do not know participant’s capabilities
- I do not know how good their equipment is for the conditions
- I am unwilling to look after other people’s money
- I do not organise events for my own or other peoples’ financial or material reward
As far as I am concerned as an event organiser I am willing to:
- Propose an event venue and date
- Negotiate with a host clubs, campsites, restaurants etc. for rates and co-ordinate attendance.
- Suggest a simple course for a cruise or race BUT participants must assess capability in the conditions at the time, of themselves crew and equipment to participate.
If participants are not willing to be responsible for their own safety and liabilities then I am not willing to organise an event for them.
Of course, if I see someone at risk I will do what I reasonably can to help them. If I am aware of an exceptional hazard then I will attempt to inform them. But I will not be held responsible for their safety or risk to property, legal liability, finances etc.
BTW, I am open to other peoples' qualified advice on legal, insurance and other aspect on any of these points.
Also, without implying you should be responsible, I thank you Jonathan for taking the trouble to consider legal aspects in your already time-consuming work administering the forum website.
Matthew
BR20 Gladys
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If we have to have a commodore, he (or she) should be furnished with a uniform and tattoo like this.
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It sounds as if we are all very strongly of the same opinion, i.e. that while we will all try to look out for each other attendees are responsible for their own actions and, in particular, an event's organiser doesn't bear any greater or different liability than any other attendee. As such this conversation reinforces the spirit with which these events are organised.
Hopefully that is reflected in the Terms and in the post at the start of this thread. If anyone thinks that isn't the case then please let me know.
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My final comment. Probably.
Let us not kill off a helpful suggestion by exaggerating what is being proposed. I seem to remember Claus doing that and throwing all his toys out of the pram and the baby out with the bath water at the same time. I for one really miss his contributions. No one is suggesting that the organiser of an event assumes all responsibility for it.
I have been involved in many car events, including Wings and Wheels events. Two of the public road events were marred by serious accidents. Though our participants were not to blame questions were asked of the organiser. Had all REASONABLE steps been taken to ensure the safety of the event. A document such as Read This First goes a long way towards answering that question as it reinforces individual responsibility. I would go so far as to suggest that the administrator inserts it at the front of any post for an event.
I presume one of the aims of holding any event is to encourage newcomers, likely to be inexperienced like me, to enjoy their sailing and learn from other more experienced sailors. To limit events to experienced, skilled and known sailors would be a shame.
Below are extracts I found pertinent from the THE LEGAL ASPECTS OF RACE, TRAINING AND EVENT MANAGEMENT by the RYA.
The report of the Water Sports Safety Working Party published by the Government
in 1993 recognised that the vast majority of participants view their activity as
safe, and that most take what they consider to be reasonable safety precautions
appropriate to the level of risk associated with their particular activity.
The report also emphasised that the primary responsibility for safety in
boating lies with the individual participant, and that personal competence,
developed through training and experience in a range of conditions, is
the most important single factor in the achievement of adequate safety
standards.
SECTION 3: Cruising Events and Crew Registers states as follows:
Rallies
Where a club or other association organises a rally by simply issuing a series of meeting places with dates and times, it is unlikely that any legal liability would be incurred by the organiser if an accident occurs either while a boat is on passage to or from a meeting place, or is at the event itself. Where on-the-water activities are organised at the event, it would be appropriate to include a suitable paragraph in the club rules and in the event paperwork.
Cruising in Company and Raids are in a different category and do carry more responsibility. The information can be found at:
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web%20Documents/Legal%20Leaflets/Clubs/Health%20and%20Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf
Though we are not affiliated to the RYA it is the body most likely to be quoted in any boating inquiry. In my case it was the Motor Sports association.
Out in the real world nothing has changed, responsibilities real and assumed are just as they were before we started this discussion.
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Hi, in the groups I sail with out here, it seems that they always make the statement: "While we may sail with company, we always sail alone and each captain is responsible for their boat and any crew". (Not sure if the words are exact. But you get the point).
David.
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Thanks Edwin. The RYA document you mentioned looks useful but is quite long so I haven't read it properly yet. I will do so and then provide any required updates.
You are absolutely right that events shouldn't be limited to "experienced, skilled and known sailors" and we need to keep these open and accessible. So we need to find a balance where we can do that without imposing a responsibility on the organiser - even requiring them to make "reasonable endeavours", etc, to provide relevant information could, I suspect, make them liable if they fail to make such endeavours and I think that could deter people from organising events.
So we need to be clear that organisers are encouraged to provide information and support but that responsibility ultimately lies with the individual. I think in practice this is what we are doing so we just need to ensure the Terms, etc, reflect that.
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No Andy, you are not being naive. That's it exactly. And I have to confess I was taken in by your irony and was fizzing with indignation until I reached your second paragraph!
I very much like David's formulation (27 June) -could we adopt that? If necessary we could start a meet with one of those team huddles and all solemnly intone it. (I'm joking about the huddle and recitation, but not about the concept.)
It's interesting, when we start to discuss this you can see how all this Elf'n'safety RUBBISH started. Do let's change the subject!
Michael
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Having read the RYA document Colin mentioned and also in light of the "lessons learnt" discussion after the Weymouth event, I have made some further changes to the first post. Hopefully this captures the spirit we have been discussing, strikes the right balance and we can move on.
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Having read the RYA document Colin mentioned and also in light of the "lessons learnt" discussion after the Weymouth event, I have made some further changes to the first post. Hopefully this captures the spirit we have been discussing, strikes the right balance and we can move on.
Jonathon
This paragraph from the Events T's and C's has me a little perplexed as I'm not sure how to differentiate between "reasonable efforts" and "a more hands on approach" the latter and the possibility of being found negligent concerns me greatly.
"However, organisers may wish to consider the right balance between making reasonable efforts to provide useful information and taking a more hands-on management approach. The former should help ensure a safe and enjoyable event. But a more hands on approach may cause you to have a greater duty of care to participants, i.e. you may have taken on greater responsibilities "through this approach and must fulfil them, which, if breached, could cause you to be negligent".
The T's and C's are excellently drafted and strike a good balance between common sense and duty of care but i would like the above clarifying if it could be done simply.
Many thanks for your hard work on this.
Peter Cockerton
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Peter,
I take your point. I had written those words to try to steer organisers in the right direction but without me putting myself on thin ice by giving legal opinion (which I am not qualified to do). I don't want to be liable for giving duff legal advice!!!
But I've looked at this again and made further changes. There is now a whole section on liability because I think it's worth explaining more of the background to organisers - especially as the risks to organisers are probably not as bad as many might think.
Please read the new version and let me know what you think.
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I see the Drascombe forum now has a "Rally risk assessments" posting for members only. Have we any dual members to check out? Might be interesting/informative.
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very sad news on the Drascombe forum.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2725080/Pensioner-66-missing-capsized-yacht-drowned-coast-Ireland-massive-air-sea-search.html
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I see the Drascombe forum now has a "Rally risk assessments" posting for members only. Have we any dual members to check out? Might be interesting/informative.
I found this on a non-members page http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/rally/rally-guidelines.pdf It discusses risk on page 5 and includes a risk assessment form in Appendix IV.
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Thanks Graham.
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As organisers of the forthcoming Summer Cruise from Torquay in August we are required by Torbay Harbour to provide them with a number of documents, including a risk assessment. Having reviewed a number of sources for examples, including the RYA, the Health & Safety Executive, and the Drascombe Association website as quoted above, we have produced the attached event risk assessment. As you will see it is fairly comprehensive, but I'm sure that there are things that we haven't thought of. In order to make it truly representative of the views of the SYA members we would be very happy to receive comments and suggestions for improvement. It could then become a standard form for future events, perhaps with a review for each event just to see if there are things specific to the event which might need to be added/changed.
While it may look rather complicated at first sight, I hope you find it reasonably logical to follow. (In case you don't notice the tabs at the bottom of the page there are several Excel sheets that make up the set). It also includes a copy of the Drascombe Association RA for reference.
Looking forward to your comments!
Nick Orchard & Alistair Conquer
p.s. if you think it's OTT imagine what the RA for the G7 meeting in Carbis Bay looks like!