Author Topic: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"  (Read 4178 times)

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Peter Cockerton

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Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« on: 14 Apr 2019, 12:54 »
I'm in the process of placing an order with the yard for a new BR 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch" and I would be interested in hearing views from current owners of this design to how the boat performs.

I would also be interested in hearing any views on the following :

One option I’m exploring is to have a larger jib (not self tacking) installed on a BRe type bow sprit bolted to the bow. This would allow a 25% increase in jib area over the standard self tacker and although I would lose the ease of being self tacking I feel I would have a better jib for lighter airs and more control over the sail shape. I have over the years used the trick of using the spin halyard to "free the sail" from halyard tension. Any comments on this for my consideration would be welcome. Can I ask if any BR20 owners find the fixed Jib bow sprit a problem with towing/tailgate clearance/jib furling etc. etc.

I'm also considering the (mainsail Stack System with lazyjacks) again can I ask for any comments from users with this system, do owners have a separate topping lift or do the lazy jacks support the sail and boom under sail dropping/reefing situations. Does the yard installed reefing lines work well, how easy it is to reef with this system.

One last thought, I’m also considering the aero luff reefing system to have the ability to reef the new larger jib under strong wind conditions where I’m sailing with just jib and mizzen (often the case when wife and dog on board and I want to keep the boat as flat as I can). Does anyone have any experience of this system (I know Andy D has and I have his very positive views).

Any thoughts welcome

Peter C

Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Bill Rollo

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #1 on: 16 Apr 2019, 08:45 »
Peter,

I'm interested in the aero luff mechanism that you mention as a way of reducing sail area in the jib in strong winds, which I certainly wished to do at one point last summer.

Could you provide the details/a pointer to a site?

Many thanks

Bill


Peter Cockerton

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #2 on: 16 Apr 2019, 14:48 »
Bill

Web site details below where you can read about the product and contact details for the comapny


http://www.aeroluffspars.co.uk/

I copy the email response from "Ralph" the designer of the Aeroluff system.

Peter,
Sorry for the slight delay in this response, but work is somewhat hectic at the moment.

I can confirm that the cost of the 4mm luff wire Aero furling spar is £415 (+VAT), and the dimensions of the largest sized outer (stationary) drum is 100mm diam with a 46mm height. The internal diam of the inner (turning) drum is 32mm – 16mm being the initial leverage distance when pulling on the furling line to furl/reef the sail. The spars are individually made up to any length required by the luff measurement of the foresail.

I would be pleased to supply any further information that you might require.

My regards, Ralph

Best give him a call, the product can be made available for an existing jib setup I believe or if you have the jib made with a couple of design features to suit the luff spar i.e. a wider pocket for the luff wire and sleeve to slide inside the carbon spar and have the head and foot cringles a little further away from the luff wire to clear the tube.

It seems to be very popular with the Wayfarers for example where a genoa type foresail is used and under stronger wind conditions reefing of the foresail helps with trim. On discussion with Matt the larger jib I’m looking for can be achieved but the foot of the sail would still be restricted to roughly foot of the main mast due to sheeting problems with track fittings so I’m now not sure if I will be using this product.

Peter C

Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Bill Rollo

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #3 on: 17 Apr 2019, 17:43 »
Peter

thank you. It's certainly got its attractions - as do your other choices - and I will give Ralph a call. Greater ease and speed of reefing the main is particularly tempting. A safe and quick method of furling the mizzen would complete the picture..

I hope you will keep us all posted as you develop the design,

Best wishes

Bill

Matthew P

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #4 on: 19 Apr 2019, 09:43 »
I'm seeking ideas for rapid reefing my BR20's gunter-gaff* main. 

The SB forum has achieved Google fame! Google "reefing gunter rig" and http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php?topic=1385.0 pops up as seventh item on page one.

Matthew
Gladys BR20

*I'm not sure of its correct technical description.
 

"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Peter Cockerton

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #5 on: 21 Jun 2019, 12:54 »
My new BR20 delivery will be delayed due to the recent fire at the yard from a mid August to end of September date, still a valiant effort by the yard I think.
Matt has designed the build with a 25% larger than standard jib with a separate forestay, this will be set on a bow sprit with a bob stay. The jib will incorporate an AeroLuff spar to support reefing as well as furling with the drum line fed back into the cockpit. The mast and boom will both be carbon fibre, the fat head fully battened main will drop into a stack pack/lazy jacks system for ease of sail handling. Matt will fit a vang on the boom ( not available when spray hood in use though).
Following advice from members using a standard non self tacking jib and problems with jib sheets getting caught on the mast cleats Matt will put the cleats much higher up the mast for me. Larger jib will mean more tension on the sheets so thicker sheets and stronger cam cleats to secure them. Dyneema to replace wire stays and additional tab on mast to support a spinnaker or a coded sail. Thinking of having a stainless steel folded plate fitted over the outboard support, just big enough to cover those areas where the clamp discs go to stop the unsightly marks when the outboard is clamped on.
A number of the BR20 owners ideas on useful modifications are now yard standard builds and too numerous to mention, however I would appreciate any views/comments/ ideas to consider on my “forever boat” as it will be the last new boat I order I guess.

Thanks

Peter C
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Rob Johnstone

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #6 on: 21 Jun 2019, 21:01 »
Re the Aero luff system. I'm pretty sure that Andy Dingle has one fitted to his BC23 - he occasionally responds to the forum message box, so it might be worth trying to contact him about it.
Rob J
Matt Newland designed but self built 15ft one off - "Lockdown". Ex BC23 #10 "Vagabond" and BC 23 # 54 "Riff Raff"

Peter Cockerton

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #7 on: 21 Jun 2019, 22:17 »
Thanks for input Rob, Andy put me onto the AeroLuff system a couple of years ago and has very positive views on the equipment and support from the designer.

Peter C
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Michael Rogers

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #8 on: 22 Jun 2019, 23:28 »
Matthew, if you put the words 'rapid reefing' on the forum, expect me to have my periodic two penn'orth (I haven't seen an opening for ages!). Get yourself a modern, camber-panelled junk sail, reef or de-reef in 15 - 20 seconds (I'm not exaggerating - and it has nothing to do with the size of the sail), no standing rigging, less running rigging, go to windward as well as you do now, run away from the rest downwind (remember chasing me all the way down Ullswater?!). It's a no brainer, and I continue not to understand the resistance to the idea.
Oh, and it's a very attractive rig to look at.

Biassed?? - who, me???

Michael Rogers  junk-rigged Trouper 12 and very proud of it

PS hope you're keeping well

Matthew P

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jun 2019, 14:53 »
Hello Michael,

Cavatina is indeed an inspiration and I'd be pleased to learn more about Junk sails from you - perhaps you will be at Mylor this coming week?

Matthew
BR 20 Gladys
"Hilda", CLC Northeast[er], home build, epoxy ply, balanced lug
Previously "Tarika", BR17, yard built, epoxy-ply, gunter rigged
and "Gladys" BR20, GRP, gunter

Andy Dingle

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jun 2019, 20:15 »

Hi all - Re the comments about Junk Rigs and by coincidence I saw this yacht out this past weekend whilst out sailing and snapped a picture as she sailed past. She is a Dockrell 22 Junk Rig. The owner mostly sails single handed apparently.
 
You can see she is well reefed down - the wind was a healthy force five with quite a wind-over-tide chop.

Hope this is of some interest.

Regards

Andy - (Now Etap 34s 'Swallow')

Michael Rogers

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #11 on: 25 Jun 2019, 22:28 »
Sorry, Matthew, I won't make it to Mylor, this year at least. I'm sure the Swallow get together will be great, and - having done the English Raid at Mylor a few years back - I know what a super sailing venue it is. There are also family reasons why I've been a bit restricted this year

Octogenarian status (plus one, a week ago actually) having crept up on me, I find my enthusiasm for sailing is just as great as ever, which can't also be said for what it takes to tow a boat, even a small one, on our crowded UK roads. So I tend to stay put and sail out of Studland. But I really might make the effort to get to Mylor next year, if it happens in 2020. And I promise to behave (no raving about rigs etc).

Andy, thanks for the pic. For all sorts of reasons, including being able to reef down in seconds as much as squalls etc require, junk rig sailing is quite a relaxing business, and ideal for single handers.

Bill Rollo

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #12 on: 02 Feb 2020, 20:01 »
Peter,

despite stern admonition about new posts after 120 days I think this still fits best here. I wondered whether you had your new boat and how well the Aero luff system was working?

Best wishes

Bill

Peter Cockerton

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #13 on: 03 Feb 2020, 13:02 »
Bill

Boat collected late last year, following discussions with Ralph at AeroLuff I posted the sail down to him for the spar to be fitted. So so far I have only rigged the jib and checked ease of furling which seems to be ok with a nice even tight wrap along the length of the spar. I had the drum line routed back into the cockpit to remove the need to drop the spray hood before furling/reefing and that also seems to work ok. Will get the boat out on the water as soon as weather permits and update my review.

With Hyde, Swallow Yachts and AeroLuff in the loop to get the sail to fit the spar some emails were required to pass between the parties and still the luff pocket wouldn’t allow the luff wire with terminating thimbles to pass through the spot in the luff pocket adjacent to head and foot crinkles due to the gap being to narrow so Ralph had to adjust the thimble width by a few mm (squash them) to get them through.

The easy route would be to get Ralph to supply a new sail with spar installed he works closely with a local sailmaker, he has made comment on several orders for spars not fitting correctly due to client measurement errors.

Peter C
Bayraider 20 mk2
Larger jib set on bowsprit with AeroLuff spar
USA rig
Carbon Fibre main boom with sail stack pack
Epropulsion Spirit Plus Outboard

Bill Rollo

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Re: Bayraider 20 USA Rig "Fully Battened Ketch"
« Reply #14 on: 03 Feb 2020, 17:31 »
Peter,

thanks very much. I'll give him a ring and see what he suggests.

BW

Bill