Storm 15: lug vs gunter and motor options

[Bryan Murphy]

Hello,

I will be starting a Storm 15 build in Tasmania soon with the kit supplied by Denman Marine.  I am still mulling over a few things. 

1. Most pics & info pertain to the gunter rig, not much about the lug.  Easy single-handing and quick set-up are more important than top-speed or pointing high.  Can anyone give me an idea what I might lose/gain with the lug?

2. What auxiliary power options have been successful?   A motor, petrol or electric outboard, does not have room to tilt-up.  Thus either will drag in the well or need to be lifted out and stored.  How much speed do you reckon would be lost by dragging?  Yes, oars will be onboard, but a power option is still desired...

Thanks for the help in advance,
Murphy

[Julian Swindell]

Hi Murphy
Welcome aboard to the forum and to Swallow Boating.
I have not sailed the Storm at all but I had a lug sail on my Drascombe Dabber, many years ago. It has some advantages over a gunter for ease of handling:
1: You do not need to move the halyard up the yard when you reef, which makes the process quicker.
2: The whole sail drops into the cockpit very quickly if you just want to get it off, in a squall for example.
3: Reefing is quick and easy.

I would recommend fitting a boom, if there is the option. The Dabber lug is loose footed and that offers no advantage at all. The sail does not set on a run and the flailing block on the clew is far more dangerous than a boom, especially if it is a high sprit boom. If it is a balanced lug (the Dabber had a standing lug) you will have a boom anyway.

The engine will drag so you should try to get it out. If it is in a well, which I think it is, it would be easy to lift out one of the very light 2.3 - 2.5 outboards you can get now and stow it in a locker. Check the engine size before you build the locker... You can block off the hole in the  well to get a smooth bottom (and who does not want that?). I would not want to try to lift an engine off an outboard bracket afloat. Either you or the engine, or most likely both,  would eventually end up in the drink.

Keep us posted on the building process. I would really love to build my own boat one day.

[Terry Cross]

Hello Bryan
We have had a Storm 15 for 2 years. It was built by Bob Jennings and is featured on the forum.
  "IONA" is gunter rigged and is very easy to rig and sail,
however reefing is a bit of a problem as the halyard has to be relocated on the yard. I intend to rectify this by fitting 2 halyards.
Reading Julians reply I tend to agree with him that the lug may be the better choice.

When Bob was building the Storm he could not bring himself to cut the hole for the outboard.  We had the same dilema and decided to leave the hull intact. We are glad we did!
We tried an electric outboard on a purpose built bracket over the side, it worked OK but was intrusive and tended to dip into the water when the boat was well heeled. We abandand that idea.
  Last year I fitted an electric outboard onto the rudder
(featured on the Forum) which is a joy to use.
I am in the process of making a few mods including an uphaul for the outboard. I will keep you posted

Terry Cross IONA

[Michael Rogers]

Hi Bryan

There are other options than gunter or lug. Can I invite you to give serious consideration to Junk rig? No, it's not just a fully battened lugsail, and recent developments mean a modern junk rig will outperform either gunter or lugsail rigs on virtually any point of sailing, as well as making aspects like reefing a relative doddle.

I'm not sure how many junk-riggers there are in Australia, for advice and encouragement. The JRA will know, and has a good website. I would also say that although the standard text -'Practical Junk Rig" by Hasler and McCleod - is very well written and full of good stuff, it is now seriously out of date with regard to recent (last 10 - 15 years) advances in rig design. The Appendix to the most recent edition touches on this, without being able to provide much practical information. Again, ask the JRA.

There will be at least one and probably two junk-rigged BayCruiser 20s sailing within the next two years - and one re-rigged Storm Petrel, I hope this Spring. Don't sneer junk rig out of your frame, it's well worth very serious consideration.

Very best wishes for your build - it's one of the most rewarding things I have done in my lifetime. Enjoy!! (most of it!)

[Tony]

Hi,, Bryan.
Dont   think   Ive seen a lug-and-mizzen Storm 15 yet.  Does such a thing exist?
Advantages of Balanced lug:

Mast steps further forward than Bermudian or Gunter Lug – more room in the cockpit.

Short mast and spars – even with an efficient, high peaked yard.

Easier to tack than Dipping Lug.

Better off the wind than triangular options – or a standing lug – or gaff rig – as by letting off the down haul you can move the boom across the mast to such an extent that you are almost a square rigger!

In light winds you can set a mizzen staysail.

You can still set a jib (on a bowsprit, to clear the mainsail yard) get a slot effect with the mainsail and add a full knot to whatever you were getting – or as a replacement for the main in foul  weather.... while asking yourself what you are doing out in a small boat in bad winds!

All the above apply to a Junk rig, too.......but the balanced lug uses less string.
Sorry if I sound biased - I sail the Cardigan Bay Lugger (...there is only the one built so far. Rather had its thunder stolen by the BayCruiser...) and love the balanced lug and sprit mizzen rig for its ease of handling and forgiving nature. Shes no Musto skiff around the cans  but then the only cans I have much use for contain a refreshing beverage. Anyway, 6 knots in F5 is enough for me. Any faster and the spray puts me fag out.

[Andrew Denman]

Here's a pic of the lug rigged Storm 15 we built earlier this year.  All the point others have raised about ease of use are true and this boat sailed really nicely.  I have built/sailed a number of lug rigged boats over the past few years and really like the simplicity. 

There is also a pic of Murphy's Storm 15 under construction on the right with 2 BR20's on the left.

regards,

Andrew

[Tony]

Hi, Andrew.
Just taken a fresh look at your beautiful Storm 15. That vertically cut balanced lug looks a treat.
I cannot see from the photo how your downhaul or outhaul are set up. Any chance of an enlargement of these areas?
You say you have a bit of experience with lug rig? Perhaps you can help me out. I have a problem with sail shape. As you can see from the contra jour photo of Four Sisters, despite being cross cut, the mainsail has developed a distinct hook to the leach, spoiling the air flow. I have tried every combination of luff and clew outhaul tension to no real effect – I can make it worse but not better – the draught of the sail remains determinedly aft. Putting in a reef, however cures the problem. The improvement is so great that she sails faster and points higher in winds as low as Force 3. Shaking the reef out in quite light winds actually slows her down! Now, I am not exactly a speed freak but I would rather do my hull speed of about 5.8 knots whenever there is the wind to do it.   There must be a way of getting this sail back into shape – or, after 5 years hard usage everywhere from Wales to Greece am I just ready for a new suit of sails? If so, would you recommend vertical rather than cross cut panels?
Cheers!
Tony

[Michael Rogers]

Tony

Although not wishing to be a wet blanket (the triggers for VERY silly jokes come thick and fast on this forum; but I can't at the moment think where that one might go. Ideas, anyone?), I wonder whether your sail shape problems might be to do with premature ageing caused by ultraviolet- induced degradation of the material? How old is the sail?

It just so happens that various Clever People who Know about Such Things have been holding forth within earshot (although not directly to me: but my ears wagged) about the damage UV does to sails. Even in Blighty's waters, forsooth, and I guess your Ionian cruising delivers a potentially lethal dose much quicker than our sails experience here.

Just a (potentially expensive) thought. Hope I'm wrong.

[Tony]

Hi, Michael.
Talking of wet blankets......any shots of your junk sail to show us? I am particularly interested in the sheeting arrangements. Cant quite see how it would be done on a BayRaider.
The  Various Clever People who Know about Such Things are dead right about the UV in the Ionian. Take a look at the picture below. (Taken at Carsington, not Corfu! Hope its lo res enough to see without too much scrolling around.) That pale strip on the mizzen leech is the bit that is left exposed when the thing is furled around the mast and the creases on the main are faded patches caused by bundling the sail up on the cabin top. The creases on my skin caused by uv don’t show up in this view.  I think perhaps I should replace these 6 year old sails with cream and put up with the resulting glare. What do you think?

[Andrew Denman]

Hi Tony,

Sorry for the tardy reply.  We have been pretty busy finishing and delivering another BayRaider 20 to Sydney.

It's a bit hard to see from the photos exactly what the problem is so I will suggest what we do to get the lug to perform well.  I would suggest if you can't get the draft forward in the sail the first point of issue I would deal with would be luff tension.  I find that using a spectra halhard on the lug rig makes a huge difference as you do not get the stretch associated with normal double braid lines. We simply hoist the main and then adjust tension with the downhaul which is normally around a 4:1 purchase and again spectra can help here.

Yard attachment position can also play a part.  Try moving your halyard attachment point a little lower down the yard and see if it makes a diffence in luff tension.

With the hook in the leech have you got the leech line too tight?  Obvious question I know but I had to ask.  Your mainsheet attachment point at the aft end of the main boom appears to also place a lot of tension on the leech.  Try just sheeting it from the mid boon blocks to see if it makes a difference.

Finally if you have good tension in the luff and the draft still won't come forward then I would get your local sailmaker to come out and have a look at the sail as it may need to be re-cut slightly.

regards,

Andrew

[Tony]

Cheers, Andrew. Thanks for taking the time.
I am working through your suggestions one by one. She is about ready for new halyards and mainsheet and I will try a non-stretchy downhaul, too. I know she will not go to windward with a slack downhaul so a super-tight luff will not hurt - unless I drive the mast through the bottom of the boat, that is! I have the downhaul led back to the cockpit at the moment. This is useful as on a run I can slacken it off to let the boom slide more across the mast, giving almost a square sail effect. In a gust you can feel the whole boat lift and accelerate noticeably.
The sail actually does look as if the leech line is too tight - unfortunately the sail is not equipped  with one so I am reduced to slackening off the outhaul. OK in light winds but makes the sail too full in a blow.
Ah, Well. Onward, ever upward!
Thanks again.

[Michael Rogers]

Hi Tony (and everyone)

Re your 15th Oct post, I have now acquired -

- definitely, some action pics of Cadenza in her new dress
- possibly, the IT skills required to be able to do a post with pics.

As it might be of 'general' rather than just boat-building interest, I will shortly attempt (you will have to imagine the long, loud drum roll) a post elsewhere with pictures and other news. Watch that (rather than this) space.

As I tried to indicate, I don't actually know anything about UV degradation of sails except that it happens. Sailors I have met who go round the world and such-like are rather comically obsessed with sail covers for this reason. (In my youth, such covers were to prevent sails going mouldy. More recently, I assumed they were to keep gull poo off sails at moorings, or to protect bespoke racing sails from too much fresh air.) I just thought that UV was a likely contributor to your main's middle-leech spread, given your sailing habits, and that as you hadn't mentioned it, I would.

Sail colour is a funny one, isn't it, and mostly a matter of personal choice. I don't care for cream, myself (I know Swallowboats do, big time); it looks like grubby white? Can't fade a lot, though, and might in the long term look whiter than old white. There is a junk rig liking in some (especially Norwegian) circles for royal blue: I don't think UV is a huge problem in Norway. I saw a small junk rig schooner recently with yellow sails which, with a not-too-dark green hull, actually looked rather good. I've played safe with Cadernza - white.

[Tony]

Hello,

I will be starting a Storm 15 build in Tasmania soon with the kit supplied by Denman Marine.  I am still mulling over a few things. 
Murphy

Hi, Bryan.
Hope the weather in Tasmania is better than the  forecast for the pointy bits on the end of the British Isles today. I am off to make sure my boat is well tied down!

Sea Areas   Sole, Shannon and Rockall
Storm warnings - Issued: 0800 UTC Mon 08 Nov
At 080000 UTC, low 60 north 14 west 956 expected 50 north 06 west 961 by 090000 UTC. Winds are expected to reach storm force 10 between 150 and 500 miles of the centre in the southwest quadrant. Winds are also expected to reach violent storm force 11 between 200 and 400 miles of the centre in the southwest quadrant until 082100 UTC.
 
How are you getting on with the Storm 15 build?
Is it to be Gunter or Balanced Lug?
Electric or petrol?

Keep us posted, wont you.

[Tony]

Hi Tony (and everyone)

Re your 15th Oct post, I have now acquired - definitely, some action pics of Cadenza in her new dress

Looking forward to them!

Sail colour choice of white a good one. Reflects UV, I suppose, as much as ROYGBIV ?
I chose tan for the CBL expecting too much Ionian glare from pale sails - and for a certain work-boat Chic (or, at least, a non-yachty look)- but in practice not a deal of difference unless you forget the RayBans!
UV does fade the tan but gives the boat a comfortable, used look.(Or worn out, like the owner, some critics say). Sort of puts the cardigan into Cardigan Bay Lugger.
Being 'comfortable' doesnt stop me trying to burn Bayraiders off at the lights, though. (Fat Chance of that happening!)

[Terry Cross]

Tony
I see that you are going to make sure “Four Sisters” is “battened down”. I know you have high winds in the Peak District but you do not seem to have much rain.
We called at Carsington, for lunch last Tuesday, only to find the island had turned into a peninsular.
Probably you are a thirsty lot in Derbyshire.

Terry Cross “IONA”

PS  Micheals “CASANDRA” looks great