Jib and Mizzen Heavy wind sailing poor drive

[Anyone can uk]

Bermudan BRE

Was out with a group in really gusty conditions and dropped from reef 2 to mizzen and jib.

The boat feels wrong with no drive: upwind sailing course made good is barely beam to the wind.

My memory of Drascombes in similar conditions sailing jib and mizzen is of a spritly powerful upwind course. Whereas the BRE is dragging to lee and barely making progress.

My working theory is that the little jib out on the bowsprit is too far forward as is the mizzen: its effort is above the rudder rather than aft of it. 

Have people experimented with a higher overlap jib or moving the tack aft off the bow sprit for jib and mizzen sailing?

I’ve binned the furler so wondering if I’d prefer a better shaped, longer overlap jib.

Any other suggestions?

[PeterDT]

I have sailed singlehanded and ballasted in 6 Bft with choppy swell towards windwards only on the mainsail, reefed to minimal size, and it worked well for me. Good speed, sometimes even planing, and fair upwind progress. May be worth trying.
BR
Peter
BRe nr. 7 Anna

[Llafurio]

.... My memory of Drascombes in similar conditions sailing jib and mizzen is of a spritly powerful upwind course. ... Any other suggestions?

I think it's nostalgia. It's a widespread and well researched psychological phenomenon distorting memories towards pleasantness.
 

[Jonathan Stuart]

That was my experience of BRe with jib & mizzen too. A fully reefed main was much better. Conversely, I've heard people say the open BR sails well with just jib & mizzen but I've never had the opportunity to try one.

[Graham W]

I’ve managed to get my BR20 to sail to windward under just jib and mizzen in quite high winds but only on Lake Bala https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,427.msg2330.html#msg2330, so no large waves to knock me off course.  I would have been using the self-tacking jib set quite far back and without a bowsprit.  Other differences to the BRe experience would be less windage from a cabin and I have a gunter rather than Bermudan rig, although I’m not sure that would  be significant.

Down or across the wind, jib & jigger works well https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2219.0.html - no chance of an accidental gybe knocking you about.  And of course just jib alone to reduce any risk of broaching to when running before very strong winds.

I’m sure I saw the identically rigged BR20 Gladys making progress to windward under jib & jigger at the very end of one of the Mylor raids (2016) when things got a bit lively, and when I was completely caught out (below).

[Sea Simon]

Ive not had the OPs issues at all, and have been at sea in some strong winds and heavy swells.
Also dont have fond memories of, or desire to return to my D Lugger in similar conditions. Here I agree strongly with Llafurio!

Why did you "bin" the furler?

In these conditions, i have always been fully ballasted, but often sailing singlehandedly. Sprayhood always down, to reduce windage- and I find it gets in the way.

Generally reefed main, full mk2 jib (pointless trying to furl-reef that) cars full aft.
Full mizzen. I fitted a downhaul cleat to my mizzen which can act as a flattener/cunningham.

Does your main have a good, useable, cunningham?

Have you also tried lifting some centreboard, to balance helm and ease any tendency of the boat to trip over the board, and so stall and then slip sideways. Foils need flow to give lift.

My "best jib", non furling, has a cunningham fitted from loft. Works well to flatten off.

My sails, in similar conditions, are all a lot flatter than GWs in that moist looking photo! How do OPs compare?

Q. How do others reef or furl the mizzen in v strong conditions? I always struggle.
If really over pressed down wind, my plan is now to release the sheets so that the sail weathercocks. Seems safer to me? Especially if singlehanded?

[Anyone can uk]

Lots of great tips to play with.

I have a downhaul fitted on the main.

Brining back the centreboard is an interesting idea I would have thought it  would bring the pivot back reducing windward angle but up for trying.

Never considered driving with double reefed main only and no mizzen or jib - on a ketch it’s not the obvious heavy weather sail plan.

I didn’t realise that the self tacking jibs could be set further back - I have a conventional jib on bow sprit

Binned the furler. Always preferred conventional jibs on boats they seem to always be a fail point. This one in particular would frequently fail to deploy fully - requiring a walk to the bows to hand turn. On one of there forays I snagged the line with my foot and broke the lug off. Won’t bother replacing Id rather spend money on a sail with better shape that’s not furler compatable.

[Graham W]

If it was on your boat from new, I bet your furler was a Barton with crunchy ball bearings.

[Andy Stobbart]

Since this conversation has already drifted into BR20 territory:
FWIW I recently spent half a day in my EP BR20 (standard gunter rig with self-tacking jib on a furler) sailing back and forth in windy & tidal conditions under jib and mizzen only to try to dump the water ballast. This was my first experience of taking the boat out in anything but balmy conditions and I would not have gone out had the weather not been OK when I set off.
The waves were by no means huge but there were choppy waves on big enough swells and I was the only sailboat out. The boat sailed perfectly adequately on all points in this configuration & weather: not especially fast but not stressed, the whole experience being really quite enjoyable and confidence inspiring, despite the frustration over the speed of emptying of the tanks.
Given this experience and the similarities between the BR and BRE I am surprised that the sailing characteristics of the BRE under jib and mizzen are apparently so different.

PS I now have an electric bilge pump to drop into the ballast tank for emptying!

[Anyone can uk]

Can we all clarify that we are using the same terms of reference for windy conditions. We had Lulls of 15 knots and frequent rainy squalls of 30 knots coming in at 90 degrees to prevailing.

 We took the double reefed main down as squalls strikes were at risk of creating a knockdown.

We could lie-to safely through the heavy stuff but in the lulls: trying to make progress Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.

There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.

[Matthew P]

Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.

There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.

At 30 degrees to direction of travel was it possible that the rudder was stalled and therefore causing significant drag without effective turning moment?  The rudder may not stall at 30 degrees but only if the boat is in a turn so that the actual angle of incidence is much less. 

On Gladys, my BR20 and other boats with relatively small mizzens I've found it best to think of the mizzen as an aerial rudder that helps trim,  and even assist steering the boat, rather than a significant contribution to propulsion.  In the conditions described above I would flatten the mizzen as much as possible and then sheet in to take pressure off the helm. This would allow the jib to do its job and provide drive unimpeded by rudder drag. I'd also have my hand on the sheets ready to let go when hit by 30 knot cross squalls!

My BR20 had a jib boom which allowed the jib to be flattened but angle of incidence to the relative wind adjusted independently. 

Gladys also had no cabin and therefore less windage.  The open cockpit also allowed me to move crew weight forward, which would be unwise if it meant they had to go in the cabin. 

Matthew
ex BR20 Gladys
BR17 Tarkia
Northeast[er] dory Hilda
Weird 3-masted sailing 7M long canoe Mystery
Various boats
   

[jonno]

Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.

There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.

Matthew makes good points.  30 degrees of rudder must be quite a brake. I guess one would struggle to make way.

Isn't getting to windward in strong winds a big ask in a little, light boat like a BRe (surely still a light craft even when ballasted)? I sailed recently in Milford Haven in our Expedition beating in what felt like a lot of wind in lumpy conditions. We were under just jib and mizzen and felt a bit over-powered from time to time. We made acceptable progress to windward.  Not because of skill on my part: I put it down entirely to the strong, favourable tide (contributing to that lumpiness) - for we were also making a lot of leeway.

John

[Llafurio]

Bermudan BRE

Was out with a group in really gusty conditions and dropped from reef 2 to mizzen and jib.

The boat feels wrong with no drive: upwind sailing course made good is barely beam to the wind. ...

Different sailors get different results. My own result is that 30 kts of wind and tacking up with VMG > 2 kts. is no problem for a singlehander

IF:
* ballast tank is full to the rim, and
* the boat has a Gunter rig,
* with two properly done reefs and flattening in, and
* the boat has the self-tacking jib
* with the jib well flattened, and
* the boat has a flattened Mizzen sail
* with the improved sheeting system, and
* centreboard is adjusted for near neutral helm, and
* if the helmsman knows his stuff to keep the speed up rather than squeezing for windward angle.

But, I really cannot speak for boats with the USA (Bermudian) rig. I never use mine. I bought one but found it to be rubbish, introduced for mass-market left handed US customers who do not know sh... about Gunter rig handling, and which is a treachery to the "Raid" ethos, part of which is unstepping and stepping the rig in a jiffy for rowing stretches and for shooting bridges.

While I cannot find fault with the heavy weather sailing performance of my BRs, I must admit that sailing a BR or BRE in heavy conditions -with the ballast tank full- is a very wet affair. That is not so nice, but the rest is OK, and much better than what I had with my Drascombes (5), except for the Drifter.

Claus Riepe

 

[Graham W]

unstepping and stepping the rig in a jiffy..for shooting bridges.

There really is no end to the BR’s versatility.

[PeterDT]

Fair enough. The conditions I referred to are : 6 Bft steady easterly winds on the Markermeer lake in the Netherlands. This lake is an old sea arm and shallow (3 to 4 m ) and renowned for its steep short waves at Bft 4 plus. No tides. I had flattened the mainsail as much as I could. I have a background in dinghy racing and sail the BRe as a big dingy, i.e. with minimum heel and max speed. I think i may raised the centreboard a bit for balance.
Peter

Can we all clarify that we are using the same terms of reference for windy conditions. We had Lulls of 15 knots and frequent rainy squalls of 30 knots coming in at 90 degrees to prevailing.

 We took the double reefed main down as squalls strikes were at risk of creating a knockdown.

We could lie-to safely through the heavy stuff but in the lulls: trying to make progress Lee helm correction was nearly 30 degrees on the rudder and about 1.5 knots through the water with jib and mizzen only. VMG was about 0.5 Knots.

There should have been ample power to play with but she was really struggling to make way.