Jib and Mizzen Heavy wind sailing poor drive

[PeterDT]

Note, I once sailed a rented Drascombe Coaster for a week and found its windwards performance unimpressive. Which is the main reason I bought a BRe.

[Matthew P]

Allow me to put on rose-tinted glasses.

30 years ago I owned a Drascombe Coaster that I regularly sailed on Ullswater with four adults and two young children.  We would launch at Waterside Farm (near the Sailing Club) usually tacking stately into wind for a few hours to Patterdale for an ice cream before sweeping back before the wind with the centre board up and all sails held out with oars.  Sometimes Ullswater's notorious squalls would blast other small sailboats off the lake while we calmly reefed and proceeded under just mizzen and jib.  I admit that in blustery conditions we might resort to the vile smelly noisy Seagull if we needed to get home into quickly wind. 

I always thought of my Drascombe as the boat equivalent of a Landrover.  Not fast, not fancy but rugged and able to go anywhere.  My BR20 Gladys and BR17 Tarika have proven worthy and better performing successors.
Happy days.

Matthew

BR17 Tarika
Fyne Boats Northeast[er]
ex BR20 Gladys
Various other boats
ex- Drascombe Coaster Dandy (now called Hope Bay and based in Oslo)

[Graham W]

While we’re in reminiscence mode, I once owned an original Bill Bailiff Lune Whammel, built like a brick outhouse.  I was impressed by the windward performance of Drascombe Luggers when I saw them out on Lake Bala, compared to my own crab-like progress against the wind.  Downwind with its balanced lugsail, the Whammel went like a train.  I seriously considered swapping it for a Drascombe and then, thank goodness, I came to my senses when I heard about BayRaiders.

[Matthew P]

This Youtube shows BR20s (and a BRe20) under mizzens and jibs on a reach.

https://youtu.be/fW9WB5spg1s

Matthew
BR17 Tarika
ex BR20 Gladys
etc 

[Anyone can uk]

Reaching back and forth as in the video - no problem at all but then a square rigged canoe can reach.

As for lune whammels I teach in them fairly regularly and totally agree they are much work to progress upwind. I keep extolling the virtues of BR as a better experience for the clients.

[Graham W]

The Whammel’s leeway had to be seen to be believed.  The BayRaider’s water ballast is also a bit of an improvement over my Whammel’s sacks of gravel under the cockpit sole.  Old school!

[boomerangben]

I remember being in a similar predicament (2 or 3 others on this thread) beating around the north east coast of Rum towards Canna. We have the same Bermudan rig as the OP but with furling jib. We had the main down, full mizzen and the Jib until over pressed. We tried furling the jib but it didn’t furl completely. We progressed pretty well to windward although it wasn’t much fun. I remember thinking that the mizzen was doing most of the work but was in much need of flattening which I have pondered long on how to achieve.  I am interested to try a double reefed main, without the mizzen or jib next time. 

[Sea Simon]

Fit a downhaul/cunningham/flattner to the mizzen, which is easy enough.

Perhaps, also to the jib, if non roller furling?

[boomerangben]

Fit a downhaul/cunningham/flattner to the mizzen, which is easy enough.

Perhaps, also to the jib, if non roller furling?

I’m intrigued by this. We have a carbon mizzen with the sail sleeved over it and a down haul made tight and fast. With the sprit boom, I’m intrigued as to how you get a Cunningham on that? 

I suppose checking the downhaul is tight before setting out and making sure the outhaul is as tight as possible but once you’ve got a healthy bend in the mast, can BRE mizzen be effectively flattened?

[Graham W]

Hyde mizzens are cut on the full side, which makes flattening them more difficult than with the old Dolphins, the original sailmaker when BR’s were first introduced.  I tried to source a mizzen with a flatter cut from Hyde but was rebuffed.  I expect an artisanal local sailmaker could probably sort something out.

[Sea Simon]

As GW says...recut flatter, by local sailmaker, cash, in quiet times?

I fitted a clam cleat to my mizzen downhaul, which was then usable as a cunningham. Beware if your mizzen mast has no internal plug fitted; mine has.

Presumably, your outhaul is adjustable while sailing? It needs to be.

Also, if free/leeward sheet is hardened in too, once windward sheeted in, It acts as a downhaul/flattener. This assuming that boom is rigged "sprit style", part way up the luff. You'll  need better blocks than the standard seasure crap...IMHO.

At least one boat (not me) has experimented with short strops on the aft most mizzen sheet blocks, so as to improve sheeting angles.

Have a look at Salcombe Yawl sites, they are VERY competitive  (money no object) racing dinghies. Beautiful  things...
Some seem to have battened mizzen, stays on mizzen masts...

[Graham W]

Here are posts describing two tweaks to mizzen rigging that may be worth considering:

Reversing the standard mizzen outhaul https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html

Modification to standard sheeting arrangements, originally proposed by Claus https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=790 (towards the bottom)

I use a windward mizzen mast stay/staysail halyard when flying my mizzen staysail but that’s a whole different matter.

[MarkDarley]

I have been very happy with windward performance of my BR20s under jib and jigger in gusts up to 38 knots singlehanding in relatively protected water; Start Bay in Devon and Tomales Bay in California. Certainly I always had full ballast in at that point.  In flatter water the wood chine version points better but perhaps the extra weight of the GRP boat helps though chop.

Sailing for speed initially then helps with pointing. I don’t think this rig arrangement will ever point quite as well as with a fully reefs and flattened main as well.  In gusts of up to 25/30 I have found that using the main and spilling in the gusts was very effective but jamming the mainsheet is not an option.

In ballasted boats in general in heavy air, I have always found a slight lift of the board to allow the boat to slide sideways a bit in the gusts makes for a more comfortable ride, assuming you have the sea room to leeward.

[RogerLennard]

I’ve been playing with the configuration of sails on my BR20 and have read this thread with interest. Most of my sailing in the BR20 has been singlehanded. As I was familiar with just one mast, my initial forays were just a mainsail (Bermudan)with one reef and jib. With 0- 10kt winds, this worked out ok but the jib on the bowsprit tended to keep the boat turning after a tack. This was probably because there was very little boat speed in the turn. The turning effect was not seen if I also used the mizzen to balance things up.
Yesterday I was being passed by every other boat on the lake and wondered what I should be doing to speed things up. The conditions were force 3 with substantial gusts to force 5/6. My best speeds were with full jib, mizzen and main. The main was at the first reef. I didn’t use full main to avoid being blown over in the gusts.
I suspect that my jib tension was not correct. Is there a rule of thumb about this? My old Wayfarer just had a lever that set the tension for me.
How can I go faster than the club member with the Hawk 20?
So far I have never used, or felt the need to use, the 300kg water ballast.

[Sea Simon]

How can I go faster than the club member with the Hawk 20?
So far I have never used, or felt the need to use, the 300kg water ballast.

In my BRe at-sea related experience, a well sailed Hawk 20, in mixed fleet club racing, is untouchable.
They are rated some 37 RYA YTC points faster, even under white sail.
However they also have a Spiro symmetrical (24m2) auto spinnaker pole launch system, which makes them devastingly fast directly down wind, especially when their spinni is set within 2 boat lengths of the mark!
"Sailing the angles" with our assyms (11m2?) is all very well, but things like coast/rocks/competitors/anglers etc seem to conspire to get in the way more often than not....and then there is differing tidal skews, when on radically different courses...but then I'm  certainly not the best asymmetric sailor!

So, pray for a " tight reachy" course 

I won't  reignite the RYA YTC v Swallow water ballast rating fiasco (imho...) especially as I no longer have any W ballast.