Author Topic: Side-stepping the technical silos  (Read 7271 times)

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Graham W

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Side-stepping the technical silos
« on: 28 Dec 2022, 21:13 »
This is a long one, probably of interest to gadgeteers only.

I regularly fume about the pricing policies of the big boating electronics companies (Garmin, Raymarine et al) that sell us GPS/fishfinders and the electronic charts that these use.  The electronic boxes are extraordinarily expensive - think how much a large HD screen smart TV costs by comparison.  And once you are tied into their ecosystem (or technical silo), if you want to keep your charts up to date you also have to pay them an enormous annual subscription.

At the same time, navigation apps that we can use on our tablets and mobile phones have been improving by leaps and bounds.  Significantly, you are not tied to one silo, there is a lot of competition and consequently subscriptions are substantially cheaper.  There are free trials of several apps so that you can see if one or other suits you better.

The main problem with using tablets for navigation up until recently is that robust and waterproof versions were very expensive, or non-existent for Apple iPads without a protective case; the screens weren’t bright enough to be sunlight-readable; and the touch screens weren’t usable in the wet.  This is also now changing as an enterprising Belgian sailor decided that existing tablets weren’t sufficiently suitable for use on the water and set about specifying one that was.  The result is the Sailproof Android tablet in 8” and 10” versions.  Drop proof, waterproof, having a bright sunlight-readable screen, a touch screen usable in the wet and with gloves, a highly accurate GNSS receiver (it picks up the relatively new EU Galileo satellites as well as the older and less accurate US and Russian ones), SD card-based expandable memory and a large battery that can easily be swapped out.  See https://sailproof.shop.

While I was fuming away about Garmin and others, my ancient iPad was becoming increasingly unreliable and my Garmin fishfinder was also long in the tooth and would need replacing soon.  It was no longer compatible with Garmin’s expensive new charts.  Not being technically proficient like Andy B with his astonishing Kindle-based system, I needed to rely on off-the-shelf solutions. 

To kill two birds with one stone, I bought a Sailproof 10” tablet with a spare battery - total cost including courier charges and UK VAT was £810.  I already had quite a collection of mostly secondhand Tacktick wireless instruments and transducers - yet another technical silo but still going strong and a sunk cost.  The only questions were whether there was a method of transmitting Tacktick data (wind, depth, water speed) to the tablet and then whether there were navigation apps that could process this data in a user-friendly way.  It turns out that the answer was yes to both.

I bought one of the cheaper Digital Yacht multiplexers that collects the data from the Tacktick system using the NMEA 0183 protocol and then broadcasts it over wifi to the Sailproof tablet.  Android and Apple tablet apps like Navionics, Memory-Map and Android-only OpenCPN then take this data and publish as much or as little as you want to see, as numbers or as on-screen instruments.  This is alongside excellent user-friendly charts and their own computed navigation data.  You can use their suggested auto-routing, waypoints,  tracks, VMC, wind indicators and all the other bits of information that I find useful and interesting.  Screen grabs below of some typical screens, taken whilst stationary in my kitchen.

The only reductions in functionality that I have found so far compared to my old Garmin/Tacktick system is that the NMEA data only flows from Tacktick to Sailproof but not vice versa.  So for example my Tacktick display doesn’t show the VMC calculated and displayed by an app on my Sailproof.  And I no longer have a fishfinder screen showing the serial changes in the depth contours under the boat - there is just a depth number or dial with configurable alarms.  There may be apps out there that can perform this function but I haven’t found one yet.  On the other hand, because I had to buy a new depth transducer to replace the Garmin one, I chose a triducer with a water speed paddle wheel, so I can now compare boat speed through the water with SOG.  How long the paddle works reliably remains to be seen. 

The Sailproof’s 1m positional accuracy is better than the old Garmin’s and iPad’s, both of which relied on the US and Russian satellite systems.  I was trying out a ‘fisherman’s shortcut’ between rocks off the south of Barra at low water, following an Antares chartlet on my iPad (see screenshot below).  I could see that if I slavishly followed the app’s route, I was going to end up on the port side rocks.  The Garmin wasn’t much better.  A narrow but visible gap between the kelp strands on each side showed me the way.

I have been pleasantly surprised by how little I have had to pay to change from Apple apps to Android versions, as most of the apps that I use are free or on an annual subscription basis and can be used in either system at no additional cost.  Being armoured, the Sailproof is a real brick compared to the old iPad and is about the same price as an equivalent new iPad with a chunky case - except that the latter’s screen isn’t quite bright enough.  On the other hand, even my old iPad’s screen is higher definition, perhaps the price to pay for pushing the Sailproof’s screen brightness without unnecessarily hammering the battery.  The Sailproof is quite fast and I can use it for all the non-sailing activities for which I used to rely on the iPad, like picking up emails, Zoom calls, listening to Radio 4 on BBC Sounds and reading the newspapers on PressReader.  Try doing that on a Garmin! 

There are cheaper Android alternatives to the Chinese-manufactured Sailproof.  For example the robust Oukitel RT2 (also made in China) shares many of the Sailproof’s specifications for around half the price https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BFX2X7TS/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0.  Its battery is twice as large but it has a very substantially dimmer screen - worse than the one on my old iPad.  I’ve found one comprehensive technical review of this tablet translated from the original German https://www.notebookcheck.net/Oukitel-RT2-review-Extremely-robust-outdoor-tablet-for-the-construction-site-with-monster-battery-and-LTE.665464.0.html.  It’s not very complimentary about some aspects of the tablet and particularly highlights the lack of sunlight readability.  The few short reviews of the Sailproof are enthusiastic but are not technical and are mostly to be found in sailing magazines, written by non-IT experts.  Perhaps a more viable Android alternative to the Sailproof is the Samsung Galaxy Tab Active4 Pro, which has a much smaller battery and brighter screen compared to the Oukitel, but still not as bright as the Sailproof.  There is also the Tripltek 8 Pro, which has the brightest screen of all at 1200 nits but is only available in an 8” version.  Attached below a technical comparison of these various tablets, plus the iPad 10 and an iPhone.

It’s early days for my new system.  Like many, I was expecting someone to come along with integrated tablet-based systems based on Bluetooth but it hasn’t yet happened.  Perhaps Bluetooth isn’t yet reliable enough compared to NMEA over wifi, which was suggested as the alternative by AndyB.  In the absence of a Bluetooth solution, I’m happy to pay extra for an NMEA multiplexer that reliably does the communications job, while allowing me to side-step the technical silos of the price-gougers.  Rob J and others emphasise how important it is to have redundancy in systems in case the main system dies and I have an Apple iPhone 8 in a waterproof case that can act as backup to the Sailproof.

One of the developers of a clever tablet navigation app started discussions with a prominent price-gouger about possible cooperation.  Somehow the subject arose about what a threat tablet apps pose to the electronic box market leaders.  It was suggested that the latter can no longer fight back by acquiring upstarts and then stifling or neglecting them, as Raymarine did with Tacktick.  The discussions were abruptly terminated by the price-gouger, which probably tells you all you need to know about where the future lies.  Even Garmin have hedged their bets by acquiring Navionics.  In a break with tradition, they have continued to develop and improve the Navionics mobile app, even as it takes market share from one of their own core electronics businesses.
Graham
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Timothy W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #1 on: 31 Dec 2022, 15:15 »
Thanks for this post. It answers a number of questions for me. When you’re finished, please post a picture of how you mounted the tablet and other displays.

Llafurio

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #2 on: 01 Jan 2023, 12:47 »
For a few years I am using the Navionics Boating App on a waterproof mobile phone with large battery, currently a Doogee S96 GT. https://doogeemall.com/en-de/products/doogee-s96gt-8gb-256gb-ai-quad-night-vision-camera-6350mah-large-battery-more-rugged-phone.

When needed, it is held firmly in position on the centreboard case by a self adhesive strip of Velcro.

Works better for me than my previous in-built Lowrance GPS units with charts on SD cards.
Ex various Drascombes, ex SeaRaider (WE) #1 "Craic", ex BR20 (GRE) "Llafurio", ex BR20 (GRP) "Tipsy", currently BRE (modified for open sea passages) "Homer", Drascombe Drifter "27" and Drascombe Drifter No. 31 "Amity". Homeport: Rossdohan

AndyB

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #3 on: 02 Jan 2023, 15:58 »
First of all let me just say I have no real usage of Tacktick instruments, but did research them a while ago. They have a proprietary wireless system which is a pier system and as such does not need a central hub. They pass messages between themselves. To connect to the outside world they use a special gateway called a T122. If you have one of these then you could try connecting an output of your multiplexer ( you do not seem to mention what it is) to one of its inputs. The documentation that I had said that the T122 could receive DPT, HDG, MWV, RMB,RMC,VHW which I then suspect will be transmitted to each of the Tacktick devices. VHW is speed through water.

So if one of your transducers can produce VHW and your multiplexer can transmit it you should be able to achieve what you want.

Look for your multiplexer outputting (WLN30 has this feature) which outputs NMEA to a physical wire which you connect to a T122 using normal 2 core cable.

Not sure how you get a depth timeline as not sure what sailproof has but if there is a Node Red application then I suspect you could get a depth timeline.
Hope this helps
Andy B
Andy
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AndyB

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #4 on: 02 Jan 2023, 17:46 »
Forgot to say. If you have android on the sailproof then NMEA instruments wirelessly looks a good app.
https://www.encodedsolutions.com/nmeainstruments.php
Andy b
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Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #5 on: 02 Jan 2023, 21:44 »
Andy,

I have accumulated very nearly a complete Tacktick system since 2010, starting with their excellent wireless wind system.  I have bought other Tacktick items over the years, mostly secondhand on eBay.  A few years ago I found a refurbished Tacktick T122 NMEA transmitter and wired it up with my elderly Garmin GPS/fishfinder, so that everything talked to everything else, in all directions. 

However, with the Garmin now well past its prime (dodgy electrical connections and not easily readable in sunshine or the wet), I needed something to replace its charting and depth sounding abilities.  Hence the decision to get a Sailproof tablet with an accurate internal GPS and a brighter and larger screen.  Also a secondhand Tacktick hull transmitter and depth transducer and a new Digital Yacht WLN10 multiplexer.  By wiring the Tacktick NMEA transmitter to the WLN10,  as you suggest, all the information that I want (charting, depth, wind, speed) appears on the tablet and even on my iPhone if needed.  And any data generated by the Tacktick system (but not from the Sailproof) also appears on the Tacktick screens. Multiple system redundancy!

In addition to the NMEA Instruments app that you mention, it looks like a couple of charting apps (qtVlm and OpenCPN) can generate depth charts from NMEA data.  Until I get back on the water, it’s difficult to know how timely and useful these would be.  They also have programmable depth alarms, which may be more useful.

As a solo sailor most of the time, I now have access to more data than I can possibly absorb by myself.  So one of my future tasks will be to remove the clutter of data sets that I don’t need from the default screens of whatever app(s) I end up using.  Navision and Memory Map look like strong contenders at the moment.  OpenCPN (Android only) and qtVlm also look interesting but in need of a degree of quite complicated customisation.  qtVlm can monitor in excess of 20 different variables at the same time - see the attached.  This is probably marvellous if you have a full time navigator on your large yacht but it just confuses me!
Graham
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Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #6 on: 02 Jan 2023, 21:52 »
Thanks for this post. It answers a number of questions for me. When you’re finished, please post a picture of how you mounted the tablet and other displays.

It may take a while!
Graham
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AndyB

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #7 on: 03 Jan 2023, 17:45 »
Hi,
I must of misread your post that you could not get data into  the Tacktick system so apologies for teaching you to suck eggs. You can go frpm the tablet if you use a particular package such as open-cpn as the multiplexers can receive as well as send data. Not sure what data you would send apart from say route info to say a  tiller pilot.

When you have the tablet please let me know what apps it comes with.... If you need a testbed I can provide a windows executable which sends out NMEA data on a wifi channel - I have data from a real trip. Could take the place of the transducers....

Anyway apologies once again.
Andy B
Andy
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Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #8 on: 04 Jan 2023, 12:02 »
Thanks Andy.
Graham
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Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #9 on: 04 Jan 2023, 12:05 »
To give some idea of sunlight-readability, attached a photo of my old iPad (on the left) compared to the Sailproof, both running Navionics at maximum brightness in direct sunlight.

In its day (2016), the iPad had the brightest screen going at 511 nits.  It still looks good indoors as it has quite high resolution but its battery is failing and it's probably not worth saving.  The Sailproof has a lower resolution screen than the iPad but is considerably brighter at 1000 nits.
Graham
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AndyB

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jan 2023, 09:27 »
Hi Graham,
Looks like you made a good choice with the tablet.

Could you let me know please which Sailproof you went with ? Was it the 10 inch or the 8 inch and does size really matter  :)

Looking at your table does the 8 inch have the same pixel density ( 800*1280) as the 10 inch.

Best regards
Andy B
Andy
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Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #11 on: 17 Jan 2023, 19:28 »
Andy,

I have the Sailproof 10”, which has a resolution of 800 x 1280 (the 8” is the same).  This is fairly low compared to an iPad - even compared to my vintage 2016 model (1536 x 2048).  I think that this may be the price to pay for the additional brightness without unduly hammering the battery.

If I was in the market for a smaller tablet, I think that despite the higher price I might be tempted by the robust Tripltek 8” Pro, which was designed for the drone control market.  This has a bigger battery than the Sailproof 8”, a brighter and higher definition screen, lower weight and more memory.  The only downsides are that it doesn’t pick up the more accurate Galileo satellite network and the battery isn’t swappable.  The latter might not be such an issue with an 8” screen as according to Sailproof, at full brightness their 10” tablet’s power consumption is 60% higher than their 8” model, in direct proportion to its 60% bigger screen surface area. 

See the ‘tablet comparison’ bottom attachment to the first posting on this thread.
Graham
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AndyB

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2023, 09:22 »
Hi Graham
How are you getting on with the Sailproof?

I am thinking of buying one and wondered how it was in practice. I am looking at the moment to use Navionics but waiting to see if the Imray offering is better. The other raster chart programmes  are difficult to use in the Solent on an electronic device.

Best regards
Andy B
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Philip L

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2023, 14:01 »
For me it was a toss up between a Sailproof 8 and an AiShell (from iTab Nav) case for an ageing iPad. I knew I would have to plug the iPad in at some stage in the day complicating things with trailing cables and with the cost of the case it seemed better to just go for the Sailproof. Since Graham originally posted in January, Sailproof have upgraded their processors so I purchased the SP08S at £585.45. The invoice from DHL for import duty was £128.47. I just couldn’t afford the larger tablet. I purchased the Rokk mini from UK sources and am experimenting with the suction cup before considering more permanent placement.
Indoors, it is almost too bright. At night you have to turn it right down otherwise it will destroy your circadian rhythm!  It has an auto brightness setting that is meant to learn your preferences but it seemed to keep it on max brightness while navigating over the 2 days I have used it so far so I disabled this and set the level myself thinking to conserve battery. However the battery would easily have lasted the two days.
It has been easy to pair with my Vesper Cortex to use the external GPS antenna and to show AIS targets on Navionics as well as depth from echo sounder.
If it is mounted on one bulkhead, you will need to alter the angle of the mount to be able to see the display form across the cockpit on the other tack. It comes with a handle that you can screw on but this interferes with the Rokk mount slightly and in any case I don’t want to leave it loose to see it disappear through the outboard well. So far the suction cup alone has been strong enough to hold well but wherever you place it (bulkhead or either side of companion way it get in the way of reefing etc (may try bottom washboard next).
No issues at all with using screen with finger even when wet but some gloves can be an issue. Rokk mini frame needs mounting slight over to one side so you don’t press on/off button with frame when clamping.
Having bought Imray Charts for Firth of Clyde, I was interested in using Imray Navigator too but had already linked the free chart subscription to my iPad and they don’t allow cross platform use. Something to do with difficulty of single logon across Google Play and the AppStore. Also their boat instruments app isn’t available for android so you can’t show tidal streams or depth etc on your Android screen so I have used Navionics which has worked fine.
I am quite happy using it at home as a tablet for the basic things I do on a tablet. It is probably not as fast as my wife’s iPad 10 but easily as good as my iPad Mini.  It definitely feels robust and is probably better than the iPad in the fanciest case.  They are very responsive if you have any questions during set up and respond quickly to email.
Given that I have only used it very briefly yet I’m sure I will be able to get more out of it in future but let me know if you have any specific questions
BC 23 Saphira

Graham W

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Re: Side-stepping the technical silos
« Reply #14 on: 07 May 2023, 09:30 »
Andy,

I haven’t yet had my boat out on the water, so haven’t used the Sailproof in anger.  However, I can confirm that as Philip says, the screen at full whack is very bright indeed and visibility will be more than enough in sunlight.  Also, the battery lasts a long time and if that isn’t enough, a spare one is not expensive.

As an iPad user of many years, I’m still getting used to Android but apps like Navionics and Memory Map work similarly well on both.

I wasn’t aware of the chip upgrade for the 8” version that Philip mentions.  I wonder what improvements this brings compared to the previous chip, which still runs the 10” tablet?  I expect that it won’t be long before the 10” tablet also gets the new chip and if it offers significant advantages and you don’t want the 8” tablet, it may be worth waiting for the upgrade.

I think that I’ll have two mounting points for the 10” on my boat.  One will be where the old Garmin used to be, towards the end of the centreboard case.  I’ll have it on some sort of swivelling bracket so that I can face the screen towards me on either tack.  The other position will be just under the foredeck, also with the ability to swivel.  The nice thing is that compared to my old Garmin, the Sailproof can work anywhere, without wires.  With an NMEA to wifi transmitter it can also show data like wind and depth from my overly extensive collection of transducers.
Graham
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