Do we really need mizzens...

[Llafurio]

Do we really need mizzens...

Pardon my asking, who is "we"? We all? We BayCruiser 20s? You BayRaiders?

[Tony]

Hi, Llafurio. Good to hear from you.
I took  Julian to mean by "we",  ...anyone with a mizzen....
We await his actual definition with interest.

By the way, Llafurio, the Deben Lugger Hybrid "Wabi" I've been banging on about has a hull shape derived from the Drascombe Driver, a marque I believe you are familiar wth. Any comments you care to make about these boats would be welcome.

[Llafurio]

...
By the way, Llafurio, the Deben Lugger Hybrid "Wabi" I've been banging on about has a hull shape derived from the Drascombe Driver, a marque I believe you are familiar wth. Any comments you care to make about these boats would be welcome.

Hi Tony,
the Drascombe Driver hull was always the best of the lot, with its bilge keels it could still safely sail in just 2 ft. of water, and despite the bilge keels it could sail away from the 22ft Longboats. I really loved mine.

The Deben guys were smart to copy the Driver hull for their Lugger, but they splashed it (i.e. they used an old Driver hull to build a mould for the new Deben Luggers) and that is not comme il faut in the boatbuilding community.
And I think they missed the chance to add a waterballast system for the Deben Lugger; that could have made it a really good boat. 

[Tony]

....... I think they missed the chance to add a waterballast system for the Deben Lugger; that could have made it a really good boat.

I’m sure you are right about the water ballast. When made to work properly I don’t see a better option for small raid boats.  As far as “Wabi” is concerned, as a prototype she was made with a heavier lay- up and feels very solid with a great feeling  of stability – but still manages to ghost along in next to no wind  while still standing up to full sail in 15 knot winds (better and no slower with a reef, though. 6 knots no problem.) If your Driver was like that I can see why you were a fan.  I have only sailed her in sheltered waters so far and am itching to try her out in a bit of a sea. I imagine that with her weight  - something over 500kg, twice that of “Four Sisters”  on a shorter water line – she might punch through the waves rather than ride over them, making her a wet boat on a beat.  How did the Driver behave in those conditions?  The CBL finds the short chop in the Ionian difficult. It’s the waves rather than the wind that stops her sailing and has me reaching for the outboard.

Re:-   “Splashing it...”  surely you need some kind of an OK from the John Watkinson Estate?

[Llafurio]

... I imagine that with her weight  - something over 500kg, twice that of “Four Sisters”  on a shorter water line – she might punch through the waves rather than ride over them, making her a wet boat on a beat.
Re:-   “Splashing it...”  surely you need some kind of an OK from the John Watkinson Estate?

Over 500 kgs?? -OH SH....! The original Driver was 360 kgs, including an inboard engine.
Only goes to show that taking an old  hull from the seventies and then trying to make that fit for todays RCD / ISO does never work, there is only so much you can do to an old hull. All current Drascombes and Devons have that problem BTW. Hugely overweight the whole lot through all that retrofilling with foam.

Splashing -molding off another mans hull design- , every decent mind assumes one would have to ask permission from the copyright holder. 

[Tony]

Perhaps I should, in fairness, mention that "Wabi" is a prototype (the name Wabi loosly translates as 'rough and ready' from the Japanese, apparently) and the real, production Deben Luggers only weigh 360kg according to Anglia Yachts. (That's still 100kg more that a CBL in EP - and doesn't include an inboard engine) The weight is probably due to the replacement of bilge keels with a 10mm thick galvanised centreplate. Puts the weight where you want it - but returns us to the advantages of the Bayraider's waterballast.

I'm more than happy with the Centurian Tank-like  lay-up of "Wabi", though. Just what I need for a boat that's going to be left in a Greek αποθήκη most of its life.....and used by my daughters!
I do wish that the mizzen would hold her head to wind a bit better - useful when hauling nets over the foredeck - which is what she might well be doing when us tourists have gone home!

[Brian Robertson]

“Mizzens,  eh?  Not worth the sticks and string!”   

I’ve modified “ Four Sisters”  with a species of roller furling gear ( a bit of rope wound round the mizzen mast and a low friction pad at the masts foot) so that I can get rid of it as quickly as possible when required, without taking my eye off the mainsail and following seas.
 

Tony,

Can you provide a bit more detail on your Mizzen furling mechansim?  I am thinking of implementing something similar on my BC20 but have not been able to come up with a workable solution so far.

[Tony]

Hi, Brian.
Not sure this would work on the BR 20. Your mizzen is stepped above the cranked tiller arrangement isn’t it? On the Storm series (from  which the CBL is derived) the mizzen is supported in two places with a 30-40cm gap between. The mast sits on a hard wood pad, which, over the years, has had circular groove worn into it by the hollow end of the carbon fibre spar.
Normally to furl the mizzen you unhook the snotter from the sprit boom, which you rest on your shoulder while you grind away, twisting the mast round and round to wind the sail around the mast. This take a couple of minutes at best. The boom is retained at the clew so when the sail’s all in I lash the boom to the mast (on top of the furled sail, obviously) with a bit of shock cord. This is nice and tidy and stops the sail from coming unfurled at an awkward moment.
On one occasion I tied the bailer to the mizzen mast and didn’t notice that it wound itself around the mast as I furled the sail. In annoyance I gave the thing a hefty tug and promptly spun the mast and  half unfurled the sail - causing all sorts of mayhem!  A minor bit of lateral thinking had a rope coiling itself around the mast the other way around as the mizzen sail is wound out. Pulling on said rope spins the mast and furls the sail in one action. Simple!
To make it easier you need a friction free pivot on the mast heel – I use a golf ball glued into place. ( One or two keep turning up every time I dig the garden – previous house owner must have pinged loads of ‘em into the rough!)  A fairlead and jam cleat help stop the rope collapsing into a knotted mess at the foot of the mast – but make sure the rope can’t cleat itself off when you are trying to unfurl the sail.
Hope the quick sketch makes everything clear.

[Julian Swindell]

When we say "we" we are of course refering just to ourselves.

[Brian Robertson]

Love the art work, Tony 

On the BC 20 the mizzen is held in a channel/case below aft deck level, so unfortunately this type of arrangement isn't an option. 

I am thinking along the lines of a continuous loop system at deck level.  I will let you know if anything comes of it.

[Tony]

Love the art work, Tony 

Here's one I did earlier.        Can you tell what is yet?

[Julian Swindell]

I had a Drascombe Dabber for many years, and she really did need her mizzen to sail well. But I think that was more due to the main sail being a loose footed lug rather than a boomed Bermudan/Gunter. I read that even Ian Oughtred thinks his Caledonian yawl sails better as a sloop rig, and he offers such a rig as an option.

I don't know the theory, but many designers say that the sloop/cutter is the most efficient rig for beating to windward. What I think is happening on my own boat is that when the jib and main are trimmed for best shape on a beat, the main back-winds the mizzen slightly, making it flutter. I cure this by over-sheeting the mizzen, but I suspect that actually increases the drag of the mizzen to the extent that it cancels out any additional drive the little sail produces. I might beat best by leaving the mizzen fluttering, but I hate fluttering sails, so I eventually dowse it altogether, and that is how I found that I can actually sail closer to the wind without it.

I have doubts too, dare I say, about the ultimate safety of the jib/mizzen strong wind rig, which is often extolled. I have used it many times and it works, but only really if the wind is in a cooperative direction. If you have to beat against the wind, the two little sails can't point you close enough or get you through any waves. Next time I am in that situation, I am planning to try a double reefed main with both jib and mizzen furled. That may lean more, but I think the improvement in control might be worth it. (If you don't hear any more from me it probably means I was wrong...)

I've been and tried it. Down at Poole today. Overcast and strong winds, F5-6. I motored upwind to a nice sheltered corner and then used the double reefed main to sail around the islands. She storms along on a run beautifully at around 5kts. On a reach, the helm is a bit heavy, but not too bad. She will tack through the wind, but can't sail close at all, so I could make no ground to windward. She never leant too much or felt over powered. Gybing was interesting... Takes about a millisecond. Again, no problems doing it, but you really wouldn't want your head in the way of the boom. An unintended gybe would be dangerous to crew, but I don't think would stress the rig too much. For happy gybing I would say that the jib/mizzen rig is probably a better one in a strong wind. It would be interesting to try her with a storm jib, but basically, when that is the best rig for the conditions, I want to be home in bed.

[Tony]

.....It would be interesting to try her with a storm jib, but basically, when that is the best rig for the conditions, I want to be home in bed.

I'm with you, brother!
(Hmmm. That reads badly. What I mean is that I agree with the sentiment expressed.)
Small boats like ours (RCD Cat. C)  have no business being out in a storm - unless the family needs the insurance money, of course.

Some will say that a well designed boat (like ours) prepared by an experienced, capable crew (that lets me out, then) should be able to cope with storm conditions if necessary. I'm sure they are right.....
  but to increase the chances of survival    " ....we're gonna need a bigger boat..."

I like to stay clear of strong winds and rough water.
Weather forecasts?   
View with deep suspicion.
Passage plans? 
Show evidence of negative thinking and a plethora of alternative routes (What course can I hold if the wind backs unexpectedly - what if the rudder drops off? Etc.)

Incedentally, gybing with a balanced lug is a much more sedate experience  than with other fore and aft rigs. Its the bit of the sail infront of the mast that calms everything down.  Playing the mainsheet helps.. but make sure - especially with multiple purchases - that it can run freely when you want it to, to avoid unpleasantness.

[Martyn Miles]

Having had trouble trying to reef the mizzen while other things are happening,Tony and Brian inspired me to retire to the shed and ponder the suggested remedy of some form of roller reefing.
I did try Tony's straight forward string wrap above the partners but there was not much control over where string went when deploying the sail, and it tended to jam in the partners.
Eventually got the lathe out and turned up a small mahogany reel to fit the lower part of the mast as in photo and then a button to fit the base. This worked fine, tried a wire rope guide around the mast, but it did not always turn freely,decided the wooden one pictured worked well. This is fitted in a socket in the support and comes out with the mizzen.
I hope that this is useful as I have not tried it in any thing but a zephyr, we have not had anything stronger for weeks.
How did your continuous loop system go Brian?

[Tony]

Well done Martyn Miles!
(I've gotta get me a lathe !)
I like the casual way you say  "I turned up a reel and a button from mahogany". That’s craftmanship, that is!
It took me AGES to jam a golf ball more or less central in the mast base - and it still drops out every time I lift out the mast. Suppose I'm just a natural bodger, and the worlds leading consumer of Duck Tape.

You talk of roller reefing....?
My method (such as it is) has the sail either set or furled - roller furling, in other words.
Have you a way of reducing the sails working area successfully while sailing? i.e. deploying the sail in part.
How do you stop the thing unfurling completely? Does the sail shape serve?
In strong winds under jib and mizzen a 10% reduction in mizzen area would help reduce weather helm. The CBL's mizzen is quite a large sail* compared to the jib and as things are I have to play the mizzen like a mainsheet - dumping it in the gusts, etc. - but the sheeting position  (a jammer on the tiller ) is awkward to use in this way. Proper reefing would be great!

*  “Llafurio” thinks my mizzen is just too large for the boat.  He might well be right but I am reluctant to reduce its area permanently, it’s such a powerful driving sail in average and light winds.