What's that knot called?

[david]

Well here is another difference in the "American" English!
Over here, they are not called 'bottlescrews', they are turn buckles!

And, are they lashings or strops? I can never figure out which is the correct term?

[Michael Rogers]

The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea refers to 'bottlescrews or turnbuckles' (perhaps partly with an eye to an American readership?). Admiral Smyth's 'The Sailor's Word-Book', which dates from 1865, unsurprisingly doesn't have either among its 'over 14000 nautical and naval terms'.

In the UK at least, 'lashing' is the right term in this standing-rigging-setting-up context. A 'strop' is (usually) a rope spliced into a circle.

[david]

Thank you for explaining Michael.

[Tony]

A strop is summat dif'rent at our 'ouse , Michael!
By the way, have you tried the Zeppelin knot for joining two ropes - or making a loop ?

[Michael Rogers]

No, Tony, not until you mentioned it, but now I have - what an amazing knot (bend)!! And dead simple, makes something like the Carrick bend seem cumbersome. Furthermore - I'm sure you knew this, but it wasn't entirely clear from the website I landed in - it holds two ropes of different thicknesses, which can be important.

Isn't learning something new and practical an uplifting experience!

Michael

[Michael Rogers]

The Zeppelin loop on the other hand, Tony (as I'm sure you know perfectly well!), is tricky to tie without practice. I can't quite work out how it's related to the Zeppelin bend, although it obviously is once I've tied it (correctly). Also not quite sure how much practical use it might be, whereas the Z B is a super-practical knot.

Michael

[Tony]

Hi, Mike.
Zeppelin Loop or Bend, I tie 'em the same way. Very secure knots but I have yet to work out a quick way of tying them.
For sheer speed, an "off the hand" bowline can't be beat....yet!

[Tony]

Tying a Zeppelin Bend.
I've been fiddling around with a bit o’ string and a mobile ‘phone and this is the quickest, foolproof way I've come up with to tie a Zeppelin knot.
 I live in hopes that someone out there can find a better way as it’s still a bit of a faff  to tie, especially in a hurry with cold, wet hands – and when else do you ever want to tie two bits of rope together?

Pic 1. (Not shown )
Tie a loose overhand knot.
Pic 2.
Pull the working end back, parallel to the standing end making a sort of “ heart” shape , then poke the end of the other (shown in green) rope through the BACK of the left hand chamber of the “heart”.
Pic 3.
Bring the working end of the green rope around and  back behind its own standing part and then.....
Pic 4.
....post it, from the front,  through the right hand chamber of the original “heart” and also through its own loop, making a new  overhand knot entwined with the first.
Pic 5.
Pull everything tight and there’s your Zepp!

Tying a Zeppelin Loop.
This starts in just the same way, with an overhand knot  – just leave a  “tail” to your overhand knot long enough to make the size of loop required, then use it in place of the second rope. As shown in Pic 6.  This is a good knot for any loop that’s going to be trailed in the water or left to flap around unloaded.
Note:-
Zeppelin knots work very well with bungee,  too.

Re- Loop knots, Bowlines and Dyneema.
Well worth reading this from the Forum in  2011:- http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17
 The strongest Dyneema  loop knot – although difficult to untie after it’s had a load on it – is the double figure of eight. (Pic 7.)  This is because it has no abrupt kinks or bends in it. 

[Tony]

                       Argh!
                                   That link didn't work!

                       Try this one instead:-

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,411.msg2200.html#msg2200

[Peter Taylor]

                       Argh!
                     
 Try this one instead:-
http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,411.msg2200.html#msg2200

That's an interesting (and slightly frightening) thread. Now I know why I was taught to use a double figure of eight when caving rather than a bowline!

I must admit when I see illustrations of how to tie a knot, it's my stomach that gets knotted rather than the rope. However I did find this rather good site on the web: http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php and I now have their app on my iphone. If I get storm bound somewhere I might even learn how to moor airships! (although in reality it seems they probably used a couple of shackles).

[Michael Rogers]

Tony, I'm coming back to your Oct 12 contribution, about how to tie a Zeppelin knot. I think something like what you show is needed to do a loop, but there is a much simpler way to do the tying-two-ropes-together version (which I suppose is, strictly speaking, a bend).

Sorry, I can't do the glamorous pics.

A) Take the two ends to be tied together. In one, loop it int a '6' with the upward long stroke on top. In the other, make a '9' with the downward long stroke underneath.
B) Stack the '6' on top of the '9' so that the loops are on top of each other to form a hole.
C) Take the free end of the '6', pass it round behind the loops and up through the hole. Take the free end of the '9', bring it round to the front and pass it down through the hole.
D) Carefully pull tight. VOILA! - a Zeppelin knot/bend.

It's much easier to do than to describe, and I think would be reasonably doable with wet/cold fingers and a gale howling round your lug'oles (haven't had the opportunity to test-drive that bit).

Try it. I didn't invent it, and there are pics/animations/instructions somewhere on the net. I suspect it is the method of choice.

I discovered St Peter's IPA the other day - very nearly as ultimate as the IPA I had in Seattle, which is my gold standard. No higher praise than that in my beer-vocab. Cheers!

Michael

[Tony]

Tried it, following your instructions, and succeeded on the second attempt. (Got my sixes and sevens mixed up with the nines at first!)
I must admit, reluctantly, that the Rogersian method beats the Antonine by several stadia for easy of use and so to YOU must go the Des Pawson Red Beret of Knotting Excellence and the title of Knot Master (Inshore, Non-tidal). http://despawson.com/

If you want me, I'll be in my shed, sulking - and practising a quick way to make a cat o'nine tails. No. Not for self chastisement, to post off to Psyco Pearce.
Forest lost 3-1 to Brentford last night (Brentford, foresooth!) and after nine defeats in a row the back four need gingering up a bit!

[Michael Rogers]

I'm sorry about your pedopilatic tribulations, Tony. I have a soft spot for Stuart Pearce, I think because he's a heart-on-sleeve sort of bloke, but perhaps a coromanuleic disposition doth not a good football manager make. My 'first' team had TWO (forsooth) players sent off in Europe: however my 'second' team played rather well in Europe this evening (3-0).

I've met Des Pawson briefly, and also discussed rope fenders on dinghies with him on the phone. He really looks and sounds the part, and I believe has an MBE, or some such, for services to rope. I am honoured.

Michael

[garethrow]

"perhaps a coromanuleic disposition doth not a good football manager make" - fantastic prose Michael - had me reaching for Chambers and then Google - before she who must be obeyed explained it to me (being a bear of very little brain, long wrds confuse me). An enjoyable 10 minutes of head scratching.

Regards

Gareth
Gwennol Teifi S17

[Andy Dingle]

Dunno much about fancy words - or fancy knots for that matter - but the mention of football on a sailing forum had me reaching for a bucket, not a dictionary!

Andy



Re the 'zeppelin' bend, similar hunters bend and others of that ilk, the way I have been doing it in many years of underwater searching and sailing, is by laying the two ropes side by side, twisting both ropes together into a loop and feeding the two bitter ends back through each side of the loop, shaking out and tightening - takes about 20 secs. Tightens under load and wet knots are easily undone at the end of the day.