Author Topic: An interesting foresail  (Read 7323 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Graham W

  • Global Moderator
  • Demigod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2506
An interesting foresail
« on: 14 Dec 2014, 18:20 »
An email from Lodestar Books turned up in my inbox, advertising several new books.  See http://lodestarbooks.com/shop/  'Catalan Castaway' is of particular interest to owners of boats like ours.

Among the books advertised is the attached, the cover featuring 'Sauntress' flying a square foresail hung from a horizontal yard for downwind sailing. I'm sure that an asymmetric/cruising chute is more useful but isn't allowed in some races, such as Sail Caledonia.  I haven't seen anything like this on a yacht before (even a classic one like 'Sauntress') and wonder what it's called.

BayRaiders are very fast upwind but tend to give ground downwind to boats such as Caledonia Yawls - see this old thread http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17&URL=http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,611.0.html  A square foresail thingummy, if race legal, might improve downwind speed a bit but at the cost of much more string.  A few extra minutes' advantage can make all the difference (and possibly even avoid a bit of rowing) in a long race like the Loch Ness Challenge.

Just a bit of idle speculation at a dull time of the year.
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Michael Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #1 on: 14 Dec 2014, 21:01 »
Thanks for the link to Lodestar, Graham - I've been given a generous book token! (No, I'm not opening Christmas presents early.)

Michael Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #2 on: 15 Dec 2014, 08:56 »
Name of that interesting sail? - might get a bit academic/pedantic, but here goes (all my relevant books are in store at the moment, so inaccessible). I don't think that, technically speaking, it's a foresail because it's set on the only (= 'main') mast. Probably 'squaresail' would cover it, indicating that it is set on a (square) yard.

I don't think single-masted naval and merchant ships went in for sails like that much. I can't recall seeing a picture of one (cue for someone to post a string of pictures). Looking after the yard and it's rigging might have been a bit cumbersome if it wasn't used much.

Graham, I know next to nothing about asymmetries etc, but don't they draw on lots of points of sailing without interfering with, or being affected by, mainsail function? If you set a square sail downwind, half of it would be blanketed by the mainsail. Worth it?

I haven't said this for at least six months (amazing!), but the answer, obviously, is junk rig. Catch me me if you can downwind, you BRs, BCs etc. Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Michael

Julian Swindell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 682
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #3 on: 15 Dec 2014, 09:40 »
Square sails are still used on a number of yachts for long downwind tradewind travel, such as crossing the Atlantic. They are practically chafe free and don't collapse unexpectedly. They are more efficient than twin headsails, which are often used for cross Atlantic sailing. You can just leave them to get on with it for days on end. The downside is you have to carry the sail and the yard all the time when you don't want them, because they are otherwise not much use. Hence you won't see them much in northern climes, where we don't have trade winds.
Julian Swindell
BayCruiser 20 Daisy Grace
http://jegsboat.wordpress.com/
Guillemot building blog
https://jegsguillemot.wordpress.com/

Graham W

  • Global Moderator
  • Demigod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2506
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #4 on: 15 Dec 2014, 18:17 »
Name of that interesting sail? - might get a bit academic/pedantic, but here goes (all my relevant books are in store at the moment, so inaccessible). I don't think that, technically speaking, it's a foresail because it's set on the only (= 'main') mast. Probably 'squaresail' would cover it, indicating that it is set on a (square) yard.

I don't think single-masted naval and merchant ships went in for sails like that much. I can't recall seeing a picture of one (cue for someone to post a string of pictures). Looking after the yard and it's rigging might have been a bit cumbersome if it wasn't used much.

Graham, I know next to nothing about asymmetries etc, but don't they draw on lots of points of sailing without interfering with, or being affected by, mainsail function? If you set a square sail downwind, half of it would be blanketed by the mainsail. Worth it?

I haven't said this for at least six months (amazing!), but the answer, obviously, is junk rig. Catch me me if you can downwind, you BRs, BCs etc. Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Michael

Michael,

I think "squaresail" covers it.  Whether it's worth it or not is debatable.  I notice that in the picture of Sauntress, it looks like the wind is on the port quarter and they have managed to fill all the sails, even the jib.

As for the comment about junk rig, I think I set myself up for that one!
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Graham W

  • Global Moderator
  • Demigod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2506
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #5 on: 15 Dec 2014, 18:19 »
Square sails are still used on a number of yachts for long downwind tradewind travel, such as crossing the Atlantic......you won't see them much in northern climes, where we don't have trade winds.

Julian,

Spending half the day travelling downwind on Loch Ness feels positively transatlantic to me!
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Andy Dingle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #6 on: 15 Dec 2014, 21:56 »
Graham. I too was taken by that foresail - and the reasoning behind it..

I don't know if you, or anyone else, has researched the boat - I do recall reading about her before in 'Classic Boat' magazine and a bit of delving around found this article - which I have copied in its entirety as I thought it good reading. (With acknowledgement to its author - Sauntress's owner).

Was akin to our own experimentations with sail plans for our Swallow Boats I thought.. Or maybe not!

Quote
The CB article refers. I was the author.

Having read the comments on the use of a square sail on a yacht, both for and against, allow me to add some of my own, for what they are worth.
Sauntress is a 28' 5 ton gaff cutter, 8' beam 100 years old. I have owned her since 1973 and sailed her without auxiliary power for the past 20 years cruising England, France, Norway, South West Ireland, NW Spain where she is currently based. That is by the by, but gives some background.

The CB article was written when Sauntress had what was then an experimental rig, old spinnaker pole for the yard and old spinnaker recut as the square sail. Since when we have moved on, though the basic system, yard kept aloft and the sail sent up on three halyards is the same.

The objection to keeping the yard permanently aloft is windage and perhaps weight. So far as weight is concerned the yard is a hollow spruce stick, adapted from a Sprite dinghy mast and thus minimal, much less, for example than the gaff. Windage must be a factor but I have kept the lifts and braces to 6mm three strand line, breaking strain half a ton, and these have spliced eyes that are a press fit on the yard arms. (no cumbersome fittings). The lifts go, as before from the yard arm to the mast head and thence to the deck ( pin rail port and starboard). The fore brace is continuous to bowsprit end and and back to a block under the bitts on a shock cord to maintain tension. The after braces go back to the mainsheet horse, through turning blocks and thence through the aft side of the cockpit to jamming cleats. It is true that I used the better part of a 200 metre roll in the process, but that notwithstanding, windage is negligible. In the overall scheme of things it is a kind of gossamer spiders' web, and more by luck than judgement does not interfere with the fore and aft rig, nor affect our racing performance. In short we remain competitive with the yard left aloft. This system allows one to brace the yard with a simple yank on the appropriate after brace (the weather brace or lee brace as the case may be)

Numerous photographs, if interested, without the square sail set are to be found on Caamouco.net vela tradicional (traditional sail).

The square sail was made last winter for me in England, having at last found a sail-maker prepared to take the proposition seriously. It is 16' across the head, 17' across the foot, 14' drop, the foot being slightly arched and has a deep integral reef (as it has to if it is to be set flying). I have tried, but failed to compress a photograph of the thing set, but having failed, I will describe how it performs. In the first place it is an extremely powerful sail, a delight to set and strike. Secondly it is a steadying sail and does not, in our case at least, induce rolling, rather the reverse. Third it works in some way I cannot explain in combination with the mainsail on a dead run, as the main feeds wind the the square sail, the lee side of which is not blanketed, as one might suppose. and fourthly, to my surprise it will set on a reach.

This is despite the yard bracing no more than maybe 15 degrees, for ease and pole out the weather clew, sheet in the lee clew and the sail acts rather like a very powerful balloon foresail. The cloth is slightly heavier than a spinnaker and thus it is a wonderful get you home in light airs sail, a consideration when you have no auxiliary power, whilst in a fresh breeze the boat quite simply flies.

I was heavily influenced by Claud Worth, Conor O'Brien and William Albert Robinson when trying, in effect to re-invent the wheel, by resurrecting what was common practice on yachts in the inter war years and if all is somewhat on the light side I would rather lose the spar and sail than the rig, though I have no reason to suppose that properly handled, anything should necessarily carry away.

But perhaps the most important thing is that it looks great, brings a grin from ear to ear when set and has not cost the proverbial arm and a leg to contrive. Yes there are a lot of lines, but that, to some extent is the nature of gaff rig and like the great man, "I will never again go to sea without a square sail".
Unquote.

Well, I found it interesting.. indeed, idle speculation!


Andy
Baycruiser23 No.25 'Equinox'




Graham W

  • Global Moderator
  • Demigod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2506
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #7 on: 16 Dec 2014, 11:34 »
Andy,

Thanks very much for this - plenty to think about and to try to understand.  I've also done some delving and have found some further pictures and discussion of 'Sauntress' and her square sail here http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?125621-Square-sails-comments&p=3885411#post3885411

See also the second part of this posting about 'Drake III', which also includes a picture of a variation on a mizzen staysail http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?12485-Drake-40-LOD-Munroe-influenced-ketch&p=658381#post658381
Graham
Gunter-rigged GRP BR20 #59 Turaco III

Rob Johnstone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #8 on: 15 Jan 2015, 09:46 »
I'd wondered if you could fly a kite surfers kite off the foredeck - I suppose some brave soul could test this by having a kite surfer flying his/her kit whilst standing on the foredeck (obviously ahead of the forestay and tied on to the deck).

Anyone up for having a go?
Rob J
Matt Newland designed but self built 15ft one off - "Lockdown". Ex BC23 #10 "Vagabond" and BC 23 # 54 "Riff Raff"

Tony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
Re: An interesting foresail
« Reply #9 on: 15 Jan 2015, 12:46 »
Hi, Rob.
Kite sails and square sails.

Your idea, Rob, of using a kite surfing sail has mileage, I think, (Look at the lift they generate.) but setting it flying might be a bit hair-raising. A stunt-kite gone mad!
Why not control it with a spar in some way  - like a square sail?
While waiting for someone to make their fortune marketing such a device, it might be worth asking Sea Teach Ltd if they would consider making a Bay/Raider/Cruiser-sized version of the “Parasailor”?

http://www.parasailor.com/uk/products/parasailor.html

(http://www.parasailor.com/uk/request-a-quote.html)

(NB Sea Teach Ltd  tell me they do make a Parasailor suitable for 20 foot boats. )

Conservative lot, small boat sailors, are we not? 
Where sails are concerned, if it ain’t Bermudian, most modern sailors won’t touch it.
Some  sail types in the  list below may have to give the Bermudian a few degrees going to windward (...and will certainly brand the user as old fashioned, eccentric or just plain daft)  but they all have advantages over Bermudian in other respects (Google ‘em!) and have been in use historically for much longer .
 Gaff rig;
Lug, in all its manifestations (including junk rig, Michael); 
Sprit sail; (The most underrated of sails in the UK)
Lateen;
Crab claw;
 AND Square sails. 

I do not think that fabric sails have reached the peak of their evolution just yet, it’s just that sailors know what they like – or rather,  like what they know.

As most of the readers of this Forum sail Bermudian rigged BCs or BRs, their downwind performance, unfortunately,  lags behind  any half decent lugger (even my CBL, in the right conditions!)- unless they use a spinnaker, a sail which seems to be the  leading cause of bad language at my sailing club!
A square sail, on the other hand, gives all the downwind lift, (doesn’t press the bow down) won’t  collapse in a mad tangle in fluky winds, is easily controlled on its yard, hoists and drops in a predictable manner and, with suitable leads, can be braced around hard to  go to windward (somewhat!).  With extra string you can even reef without “laying aloft” or dropping it completely.  What to do with the yard when not actually in use has always been the problem but surely a CF spar could be stowed against the mast somehow? (I’d give it a try myself but going TO windward is the  problem I have!)
I believe spinnakers are banned at Sail Caledonia ? Am I right?
Any prizes for the first BR to win by surfing the length of Loch Ness at 15knots under  SQUARE sail? Now, THAT  I’d like to see!