Code Zero...development or what?

[David Stockill]

My experiences are identical to Graham's. My B23, St Hilda, has an asymmetric with a Selden GX7.5 topdown furler unit.  The semi-rigid plastic reinforcement in the Head prevents the rolling up of the top part of the furl and then catches on the forestay. Also the similar reinforcement in the tack does tend to tension the lower part of the sail during furling which can encourage the tack to spin and hence produce a "loose" furl. I am currently in discussion with Hyde and Matt about having the head and tack replaced with conventional heavy-duty nylon reinforcing as has been used in spinnakers for generations. (Peter, since St Hilda and Seatern were launched within 3 weeks of each other I imagine your headboard will be the same - its the current Hyde standard).

Another issue is getting the length of the luff and torsion rope correct. The  spinnaker luff is typically 105% of the straight line chord across the sail between head and tack to allow for the bow in the sail. If you have an existing spinnaker designed to fit between mast sheave and bowsprit-end you will find that once allowance has been made for the furling units and tackline then it may be  too big to fit in the available gap provided by the torsion line and you get a loose luff.

Selden are adamant that a tackline of say 20-30cm is essential to ensure clean and tight furling and my own experiences bear this out. This needs to be included in the 105% calculation.

I am now of the firm conviction that the only way is to choose your furler and then design the spinnaker to fit! Most of us, I imagine, do it the other way round!

Finally, a comment from Selden this week is that they advise that the spinnaker should be dropped to the deck ASAP after furling - it is not intended to be used in the way a job furler would be and they would not advise sailing to windward with the (furled) spinnaker hoisted. They see it purely as an aid to swiftly storing the spinnaker with few hands....

David

[Peter Taylor]

Graham, David, thanks for your advice. I had a feeling that my dream of simple asymmetric handling using a top down furler might be just that, a dream!

David, I'll be interested in what Hyde say about modifying the sail. However not sailing with the furled sail hoisted does take away a lot of the attraction.

Peter

[Nick Peters]

Hi all,

Just to clarify the BRe suituation:

1. The "standard" asymmetric is the one flying in the clips on the website....it is longer luffed and rounder shouldered than the previous design specifically to aid a beam reach to close to a run. the longer luff enables more projection giving more power on a reach and when broad you can "float" luff round to windward and get it clear from main, especially if you sit to windward to keep the boat heeling slightly to windward. Letting the kite float like this you can "soak" down close to a run.

2. My view is the BRe - MK2 has enough fore and aft sail for close reaching. There is however a design for a "genoa" - one only made, but Hydes have the design. It is just a longer footed, lower clewed jib. It adds little to the upwind speed, but is definitely better fetching and close reaching. I quite like it, though, because it helps to balance up the helm.

3. To my mind adding the asymm to the BRe MK2 jib set up (fixed sprit) is a complete no brainer...it is so simple to use. I sorted a launch bag design which just clips around the winch or spinlocks and shockcord clips down to the locker lid handhold.

4. As Matt says, the BRe mast could never take a asymm or any 3rd sail hoisting higher than standard without spreaders. A couple of times we have flown the asymm in a real breeze - which is fun because without the ballast she planes freely - but have felt it wise to keep some kicker on to stop any inversion in the mast.

5. The other useful bit of kit is a whisker pole...about 2m long works to pole out the jib, or in the light the asymm will goosewing quite nicely. Pole eye fixed into the mast base reinforcement patch - about 9 ins up from memory. The whisker pole set up should be added to the price list soon enough.

With regard C0's my view is they are primarily for apparent wind boats like multihulls or lightweight racing monohulls, but will never replace a good well projecting asymm, as you have to get downwind sometime! So for me they are a 4th or 5th sail purchase....after the F/A wardrobe and downwind sail.

Any asymm should be able to use a topdown furler, but a bit overkill for the BRe or BR20, unless you are singlehanded. Perfect for the BC23, when it could stow furled neatly lying along the scuppers (is that the right word?).

Cheers,
Nick (Peters)

[Rob Johnstone]

Hi Nick,
That's a really useful summary of the situation regarding the mix of Genoa, Code 0 and assymetric foresails.
If one were to use the assymetric on a BC23, where would the foot of the sail be attached?On the videos the sails are flying from (for want of a better set of words word) a line secured to (I think) the fitting at the bottom of the forestay. 

Is this practical if one had such a sail fitted with a top furler mechanism? Would such a rig need a "mini" bowsprit, to keep the foot away from the forestay so that there was space for the pulley etc that controls the furler?

Rob J

[Andy Dingle]

Nick. May I add my thanks for a very useful and informative post. Thanks.

Like many other owners I am seeking the 'el dorado' of a nice simple easily furled asymmetric (or C zero) and I am reassurred by your advice.
I agree that for the BC23 the ability to drop the furled asymmetric and let it lay down the sidedecks (my preferred term, as opposed to 'scuppers'!) neatly out of the way and fairly easily hoisted when required - the only problem with that is that the spreaders tend to get in the way as you hoist (it does when dropping and hoisting the genoa) but it is fairly easy to 'throw' the sail forward around the spreaders as you hoist.

Rob mentions the use of a small bowsprit on the 23 to keep the whole sail and furlers well forward of the forestay. I entirely agree with him and had been thinking along the same lines, how did Matt secure the tack in the video you made? Also how were the sheets secured - it looks a bit like they just went back to the rear mooring cleats?

The neat solution the BC25 (26?) has with that gorgeous CF 'bowsprit' would be a good solution. That or something similar made up in wood or even stainless. On a previous boat I had a very simple solution with a home made bowsprit made from a cut down old alumimium spar that just fed through the bow roller and wedged under the winch drum of the anchor windlass with just a block at the end to feed a tack line for a cruising chute. That worked fine. I've looking at my 23 to see if I could do something similar through the bow roller and back to the sampson post, but it looks like the angles are all wrong.

I was very interested to read of the new 'genoa' design for the BRe. Particularly the up wind performance and better balance on the helm. As you may recall I have a different genoa design on my BC 23 incorporating an aeroluff spar. I have not been able to ascertain whether or not I have a different cut genoa than previous 23's. I suspect I have, as I have heard of other 23 owners talk of a strong weather helm. I can say that my 23 is beautifully balanced and upwind performance is very respectable. Whether that is because of the spar or the cut of the sail, I can't really say.
I was sailing a couple of days ago in a (bitterly cold!) North Easterly, consistently in force 6's - deeply reefed and with full tanks and she was as sweet to handle as you could wish for, there was a slight weather helm but just the right amount you would want for safe sailing - my slightly built crew (Karen, not Peter!) would easily have been able to handle her - if I let her, which I didn't in those winds!


Andy

Baycruiser23 No. 25 'Equinox'


PS .. Nick. I saw this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsxmBrCO3lg

Thought of you! Separates the men from the boys.. 16 knots! That'd make my BC23 break into a sweat ...

[Peter Taylor]

Rob mentions the use of a small bowsprit on the 23 to keep the whole sail and furlers well forward of the forestay. I entirely agree with him and had been thinking along the same lines, how did Matt secure the tack in the video you made? Also how were the sheets secured - it looks a bit like they just went back to the rear mooring cleats?

I can answer at least one of those questions - as on my BC20, the sheet goes through a ratchet block which is on a rope loop which you attach to the stern quarter cleat (see video grabs below). Looks like the tack line goes through a small block or shackle at the top of the forestay tensioning line (whatever that is called).

My question is how easy is it to gybe the asymmetric when it is so close to the forestay?  The BC20 has a long(ish) CF bowsprit (photo) and I still sometimes manage to get the asymm in a twist (literally) during gybing. My poor technique, I admit.  But it must be harder still with only a small gap? 

The more I look at the video the more I realise that my asymm is flatter cut.  I would have thought that would make it easier to carry close to the wind but Nick appears to suggest otherwise.

Peter

[Rob Johnstone]

Regarding Gybing, I suspect that you have to fly round on the outside (eg forward) of the forestay.

Rob J

[Peter Taylor]

Regarding Gybing, I suspect that you have to fly round on the outside (eg forward) of the forestay.
Rob J

Hi Rob, yes, that's what you do, but if the sail falls back on the forestay during the gybe there's a chance two parts of it fill with a twist between them. However I strongly suspect it's just that I don't have the correct technique.

Dinghy sailing years ago with a baggy running spinnaker and a crew,  my job as helm was to swear at the crew when he got it wrong - I was very good at that!  Actually handling the spinnaker myself is a whole new game.

Peter

[David Hudson]

Following Nick Peter's comments about whisker poles.

An Expedition, goose winged downwind is going to make a lot of folk in front go "squeaky bummed".

You must have sailed Enterprises Nick!

[Nick Peters]

With regard the BC23, I am sure it needs a short sprit to give some separation from the main, aid gybing, and help balance the helm when pressed. A short sprit of say 500mm would emulate the simple practicability of the BRe mk2 set up, and of course any semi performance minded cruiser...the new Jeanneau SO349 for example has a moulded sprit like the first BC26. I know Matt agrees and if he can find time to come up with something elegant as a standard fix it would be very welcome both for new boats and as a retro for boats without the long sprit, which to my mind is too cumbersome. keep asking, in fact if someone just orders one it might happen!
thinking about it I expect the same kite design could set off the stem head with no furler or off a short sprit with furler? the difference would not be 20-30cms, but the non furl set up might just have to ease the tack and Hilliard a few cams each.
that would be one sail design for both situations.
gybing....a downwind sail with 105% luff and no luff rope cannot really pull round the front, so you need enough separation and a loose enough luff and enough luff projection to do, in dinghy terms, a "blow through" gybe. pull the old sheet in as you bear off to a run, so as you gybe the kite is draped across the jib luff. the idea is there is sufficient sail area forward of the jib luff/ forestay to "blow through with the aid of the crew pulling in the new sheet. this stops the dreaded hourglass, which can be a real pain.
on either the BC23 or the BRe, taking the forestay off and tying it back to the base of the mast makes sense, as it is very easy to catch the sheet on a forestay.
lastly, I would have thought the BC23 could carry a bigger jib, like my "Genoa" design on the BRe, it would balance the helm and give good low down drive. Bigger jibs are always harder to tack of course and the sheet loads go up...on the BC23 it might then make sense to explore a 2:1 sheet like the Hawk I believe.

[Nick Peters]

On re-reading my last post, I should have clarified my issue with pulling round the front when gybing.....with a downwind loosely sheeted sail on any length of sprit, you have a high chance of the lazy sheet dropping down below the end of the sprit or tack...it may be better on a code zero or tighter luff sail? This is just based on personal experience. so I just sheet and gybe it normally.....pulling in the old sheet sharply as you gybe also kills the wind in the sail allowing the quick handed crew to assist the blow through with some rapid sheeting of the new sheet. Certainly this works on the Dragonfly....the one in the footage being overtaken is just like ours. not that relaxing as a cruising boat!!
nick.

[David Hudson]

As a new boat owner this thread has drifted into some useful territory.

1) Nick's comment on his forestay answers one of my questions.
2) His comments on Asymmetrics adds to my growing understanding of what works.
3) The genoa option is interesting but presumably this will raise issues of sheeting
    angles, sail trim and fittings required. Sounds interesting! But probably for half way
    through the season?

ps No code "0" for me and I started this thread!

[Graham W]

I have been following this thread with interest.  As the original question included the words "or what?", it is not too far off topic to point out that if your boat needs extra canvas, there are alternatives that may be easier to handle than asymmetrics, code zero's etc, especially if single-handed.  See the photo below.  You need a bowsprit or spinnaker pole for the flying jib. The mizzen staysail needs very little in the way of extra hardware but it does involve lots of string.  In suitable fair winds across the beam, the boat goes like the clappers.

[Peter Taylor]

Hi David,

I understand you have ordered a striker line on your asymmetric. My knowledge of spinnaker handling was developed in the dim and distant past before strikers, spinnaker chutes and the like, were in general use on dinghies. I'm curious to know how you will use the striker on your BRe (which I assume does not have a chute)?

Peter

[David Hudson]

Peter
The use of a striker means I can handle everything myself from the
helm position . It avoids moving forward and manhandling the sail via
say the sheets.

The 49'er set up at  http://www.mauriprosailing.com/One-Design/images/OD-Harken-Images/49er-Spinnaker-System.gif , shows the halyard and retrieval system. It is one
continuous line.

Initially I will bring the Spi. under a bar in the bow and pack it into a turtle aft the companionway washboards without a fabric chute and develop from there.

David