Best small boat for Falmouth (UK)?

[maxr]

I'd be glad of some doubtless unbiased (!) comments on what you consider the best small cabin/cuddy boat for sailing in the River Fal estuary, based in Falmouth (UK). Use will be day sailing and racing for fun with 2-4 adults. The boat will live on a mooring, and minimal maintenance suits me best. The cabin/cuddy is for drinking tea, hiding from the rain, and maybe a chemical 'facility'. Current short list is BRe, Shrimper 19 (probably outboard), and Hawk 20 Cabin - but all other suggestions welcome.

It's a pretty close call so far, with the BRe and Shrimper as favourites. The Hawk and BRe are faster and more fun, with less string, treewood, and maintenance - against which there are many more Shrimpers cruising and racing in the area (and that might be the decider). The Shrimper is a drier boat than a Hawk in chop, and more forgiving but less fun. I don't know whether the BRe has yet been rated for racing.

What do you think?

Max

[David Hudson]

Shrimpers are all over the waters around Falmouth like a rash! A swarm?

It would be fantastic if you could establish a fleet of BayRaider 20's or Expeditions on the water.

Your general comments are spot on. The other consideration for me would be towing. Because the Raider is water ballasted it is very light to tow. The Raider and Expedition weigh 500 kg's and 520 kg's respectively, whereas the Shrimper has a towing weight of 1500 kg's!
 
For launch and retrieval, no contest. Even with 300kg's of ballast, the weight of a Raider plus engine and kit will weigh in at under 1,000kg's.

"You know it makes sense!".

[Peter Taylor]

Some "unbiased" (?!) comments.  When choosing my boat I did consider the Hawk 20 Cabin, BRe, Shrimper 19, and some others.  The reasons why I eventually chose a BC20 mainly don't apply to you.  However the reason I chose the BC20 over the BRe was because I usually sail single handed and valued a larger cabin.  If I normally day sailed with 2 to 4 adults the BRe would have been a much better choice.  Sailing the BC20 with more than two people is possible but not comfortable... are you sure that the same would not apply to the Shrimper 19? On the BC20 the cabin plus the outboard well makes the cockpit quite small and I would have thought the Shrimper would be very similar.

I also would echo David's comments on towing.  When I bought the BC20 I didn't really worry about towing because I planned keep it "permanently" at my jetty.  However I'm now thinking it would be good to tow to one or two other places ... Falmouth for example!  Of the boats you mention only the BRe is an "easy" boat to tow. I suspect that the weight of the Shrimper, and the time taken to rig the mast on the Hawk, means the only times they get towed by most owners (if at all) is the start and end of the season.  If there's any chance in future that you might decide to tow the boat, then the BRe would be the one.

Then there's your word "fun".  If conditions allow I like to sail my BC20 with the ballast tanks empty because it's so light and responsive... it's fun to sail.  In light weather I can be doing a few knots when larger cruising boats are wallowing around. A BRe, not loaded down by all the cruising stuff I have in my BC20 (to Matt's despair), would be still lighter and faster. But if you want it to be "forgiving" or if the wind is increasing, you can fill the ballast tanks and have the best of both worlds.   I'd definitely go for the boat that's more "fun".

A final comment... I visited the guys that build the Hawk and I visited Matt and I chose the one who would respond to my needs both before and after I bought the boat!

Peter

[Michael Rogers]

Just to stir things a bit - have you looked at the Whisper Boats Secret? 20 ft cruiser-racer, there are 'cuddy' and cruising versions. It is a very pretty boat, said to be fast, and I guess you'd have fun sailing rings round all the Shrimpers. On a mooring around Falmouth would be an ideal place for one, I guess.

Talking of Shrimper fleets, I have never seen so many as in Poole Harbour - literally rows of them on moorings (I counted 40 or so and then gave up), racing each other, flotillas of them cruising in Studland Bay. Ubiquitous might describe it.

[maxr]

I found the Shrimper to be OK with 3 in the cockpit and 4 would be possible, whereas 6 is no problem in the Hawk (and presumably BRe). The Whisper Boats Secret is indeed a nice looking boat - thanks for that suggestion, but it's ruled out for my purposes (as are several other good boats) by having too much wood to maintain.

Some folks regularly tow Hawks and Shrimpers to regattas and meetings, but it looks like an effort. The short but all wood Shrimper mast in its tabernacle might be no problem if you have the right mechanical advantage to hand. However pushing the long aluminium Hawk mast up by hand does concentrate the mind a bit.

[Andy Dingle]

The new Shrimper 21 looks quite interesting with a different hull design than the old 19, it makes use of the hingeing bowsprit as a gin pole to make trailing easier, Cornish Crabbers say it is faster and with proportionately more accommodation - looks very nice.

The Cape Cutter 19 is also a very useful boat in my opinion, looks gorgeous but has fairly limited accommodation. Honnor Marine make a cracking trailer for it, make it themselves as opposed to farming it out to a 'non sailing specific' trailer manufacturer, hence it does actually work!
There is a 21 foot version but (as far as I am aware) only available to order in wood.

[Jonathan Stuart]

It strikes me that those 3 boats are fairly different so the decision comes down to what your priorities are. I also agree with Andy that the Cape Cutter is an interesting boat and definitely worth a look.

Andy also mentioned the Shrimper 21 and, for me, that is interesting but is "more of same" Shrimper formula. A S21 and BC23 were almost side by side at the Southampton boat show and I felt if I was in the market for a boat like that then you would have to really want the whole Shrimper experience to choose a S21. The weight and accommodation on a BC23 make it a much more practical proposition in my view. (I also thought the S21 less pretty in the flesh than in pictures and doesn't work as well as the S19 - cabin was dark inside and when viewed from outside the cabin lines didn't quite work for me). Anyway, I digress.

I chose a BRe because it gave me the right balance of "trail-ability", accommodation, performance and aesthetics. The BRe is a genuine trailer sailor whereas I see the Shrimper as a "trailerable sailor". Whether that's a factor depends on whether/how often you'll want to move the boat by road.

If you want reasonable performance then again I'd vote for a BRe over the Shrimper - I do enjoy overtaking Shrimpers and, indeed, all the Cornish Crabbers when I sail on the Fal :-). In light winds we're still sailing while they're drifting with the tide and when the wind picks up there's an even bigger difference!

But if performance is a priority then the Hawk trumps the BRe (albeit by a lesser margin that the BRe beats Shrimpers). However, I believe you have to really want that performance to put up with the Hawk's aesthetics! I can't think of a reason to choose the Hawk's weight and aesthetics other than for the performance and extra "tweak-ability" it has.

But if you want a bigger, more usable cabin and are happy to sacrifice cockpit space then perhaps the Shrimper's the boat for you. I decided that I not only wanted a cockpit big enough to seat 4 people but that they should be happy to spend the day there - therefore they should be able to move about and all side on the windward side in comfort, etc. For us we live in the cockpit and use the cabin as required rather than seeing a cockpit as somewhere the crew sits on a boat whose function is to transport a big cabin over the water.

In my highly biased opinion, the BRe not only suited my priorities but is the boat with the fewest limitations if you're unsure how the boat will be used. If the cabin size isn't an issue then I think it's the "safest" bet in terms of having the fewest compromises.

[maxr]

Jonathan Stuart said:

'But if performance is a priority then the Hawk trumps the BRe...'

I think the Hawk may be faster upwind - it has 16% more sail, with loads of adjustment and rigging tension if you want it. Reaching and deeper, I'd be interested to hear some views on how the Hawk and BRe actually compare on the water. Do you find yourself being passed by Hawks? The Hawk weighs a ton, and I suspect planing takes lots of wind and skill.  Years ago a PBO magazine test saw 12 knots in a Hawk - in a Force 7, with full sail up. Perhaps as a result (?), the Hawk manual has sensible warnings to the effect that, just because the boat can do this in the right hands doesn't mean that we should all try it 

[Jonathan Stuart]

With hindsight, the word "trumps" was an exaggeration; perhaps I was trying to be fair to the Hawk and say something positive in its favour"!

I have sailed alongside Hawks in my BRe on a few occasions. From memory, mainly beam reaches and upwind. I kept pace with the Hawks but couldn't out-perform them and I felt that if they were trying harder (playing with their great range of bits of string) then they might start creeping ahead. There's no substance behind that comment other than it being a gut feel. So I would guess the Hawk has slight edge when it comes to performance but it's not a massive difference (unlike the BRe vs Shimper). All things being equal, I don't think a BRe will overtake a Hawk but, sailing side-by-side, neither are you going to be humiliated sailing in a BRe and wish you had the other boat.

Re PBO tests, PBO's test of the BR20 (February 2009) clocked the boat at 11 knots downwind in winds gusting to F6.

[maxr]

If the BRe can more or less keep pace with a Hawk that's enough for me, because the Hawk is quite quick. Are there any thoughts on whether the conventional jibbed BRe points any closer than the self tacking version (and is the jib bigger), and has anyone had their BRe rated (or does it have a Portsmouth rating)?

[Jonathan Stuart]

The conventional jib is, I believe, slightly bigger so should have a theoretical advantage. In practice I don't think the difference is enough to give a practical advantage. When I've been sailing (using a self-tacker) with boats using conventional jibs there's been no obvious advantage for either boats. So I think the decision comes down to preference and factors as to whether you like to manage the jib or are happy to have it look after itself, etc.

Re Portsmouth rating, the following may help:

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1223.msg8670.html#msg8670
http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,263.msg802.html#msg802

[David Hudson]

I loved my Cape Cutter.

Back as far as 1973 there were two David Hudsons sailing FD's in South Africa, where the Cape Cutter originated. In 2010, there were two David Hudsons sailing yachts named Tokoloshe in the Solent. Confused? So were a lot of people.

Tokoloshe, outboard version, weighed in at c.1,550 kg's: similar to the Shrimper. The Cutter has more cabin space with proper quarter berths, The Shrimper has a larger but more cluttered cockpit.

Tokoloshe sailed like a dinghy with excellent seakeeping abilities. Check out their owners' register for where they congregate. As previously stated, their trailer is the best on the market but again, you have a lot of weight to tow. I used a BMW X3.

[maxr]

Thanks for the rating info Jonathan - looks like the answer is 'no standard rating', that's a pity. David - I admired a Cape Cutter at the Southampton show a while back, but if I remember correctly, it may have been one of the boats I couldn't sit down under the side decks in - I'm 6'0" with a long body. The Shrimper and First 211 were just OK, I think because they have low seat mouldings. It looks like the CC in common with the Shrimper, has a non tilting outboard installation - which is now a material factor due to the weight of some small 4 strokes (are they getting any lighter?).