Reefing and Changing Course When Sailing Fast Downwind

[Rob Johnstone]

Perhaps we should ask Helen and Nick to make this an event at the July raid - we could draw straws for which solution to try and all observe the results!

[Tim Riley]

It appears that Matthew requests my appearance on this thread. Yes there is a degree of experience with Ristie in these conditions. On Loch Ness in certainly interesting conditions with high short seas from fresh water we turned and reefed without too much difficulty or feeling of instability. On the return trip back up the loch, Ristie performed admirably together with crew Carol doing a fine job sitting on the rail holding on to the stays and protecting the helmsman from the waves, except those that came over her shoulders.

On the Yealm surfing trip I was in the swallow demo bayraider, Ristie having gone to pastures new. We had the benefit of a well oiled crew of 3 and the Bermudan rig. With a little practice we could reef pretty quickly without the drama of the Gunter rig and the knowledge that I had one on order was good to know. Coming back in the surfing zone we had the keel up.  The theory being that once surfing you need to let the wave take you. The last thing you want is to broach and then the breaking wave would take the hull sideways and it trips over the keel. What happens next depends on the height of the wave and how lucky you are feeling...

On the subject of hanging on when running down wind until you reach shelter, well my money is on stopping and reefing. Once I tried hanging on and it didn't end well. Running down an ever narrowing loch in Ireland I thought we could make it a little further to shelter past the narrows. Unfortunately we broached ended up with a boat full of water but fortunately everybody was still in the boat. On that basis I believe that the bayraider will take much bigger seas than you think and you are far more likely to fall over from having too much sail than in the actual action of reducing your sail area.

Cheers guys, here's to safe sailing and watch out for Ristie II the new BRe with tan sails this year...

[Peter Taylor]

Because of the restricted fetches, we don't get "proper waves" much in the Solent so I'm speaking more from my dinghy sailing days rather than experience with my BC20 "Seatern" (so some of the following may be rubbish!)...

Unless you are in the surf zone (not good!) or a tide race, wave breaking occurs on the crests of the waves rather than the entire wave breaking.  Thus being beam on to the waves is uncomfortable but should not lead to a capsize unless you let the wind cause one.  I'd disagree totally with Andy, I would have the centreboard fully up. You want to slide sideways across the water in a gust rather than heel.  Have all sails on the same side (i.e. no goose-winging). Turning across the wind can actually be easier as the boat surfs down a wave since there's less pressure on the main when going faster. There also tends to be a bit of weather helm to help the boat turn (even without any centreboard).

As you turn let the main and jib right out and sheet in the mizzen if set.  You might want to furl the jib to prevent any risk of a flogging sheet catching on something, filling the jib, and causing the bow to pay away which could be disastrous. Drop the main into the lazy jacks while beam on. The mizzen should then turn her more into wind making it possible to re-hoist the main reefed or alternatively tie it down or close the sail bag (of course this is with a Bermudan rig making life easier).  You might want to continue under reefed main and jib, but my preference with Seatern going downwind is mizzen and jib only.

You can see a movie which includes Seatern sailing fast under jib and mizzen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zOYSz-S44 (the down wind bit starts at about 3min, after 4m20s I'm under jib only).  Winds measured at the Bramble met post were force 6 gusting force 7. Seatern was doing 8 to 9 kt over the ground but 2kt or more would have been current.  At one point Seatern broached and I continued under jib only - however I now think the broach was caused by the rudder coming up after having touched bottom earlier in the day. A full account of the day, including plot of the winds can be found in my Seatern blog...
 http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/diary_2015_may.php?year=-15  ..look at 12th May entry.  It was one of the few days last summer when the sun shone!

Peter

[jonno]

Interesting that both Rory and Peter choose to reef whilst the boat is reaching.  In the conditions which prevail when I want to reef, I don't find it easy.  Please can someone explain to me the pros and cons of reefing/dropping the mainsail whilst reaching versus head to wind?

John

[Peter Taylor]

I'd always try to reef head to wind... but if it's rough getting the boat head to wind can be difficult. With the centreboard raised turning into the wind is probably not possible. But with lazy jacks and provided your mast track runs freely dropping the sail with the wind beam on is an option (as long as there is no wind in the sail driving the boat - sheet must be fully out). As soon as possible after that one would want to get the boat more head to wind and get the dropped main fully under control by being tied down, zipped into its bag, or reefed and re-raised. 

I'm not advocating reefing while reaching - just getting the main depowered by turning across the wind with the sheet out and with the centreboard raised to minimise risk of capsize. Once the main is out of the way the mizzen will hold the boat into the wind to some degree while you decide what to do next.  Without a mizzen then the jib definitely needs to be furled but the main can be left slightly raised to turn the boat into the wind.  The danger then is that it blows out of the lazy jacks.  This is all based on a Bermudan rig, I don't know what to do if you have a gaff - others can advise!

Peter

[jonno]

Peter

Many thanks for this.

John

[Matthew P]

Thank you every one for really interesting and useful and contributions.  Apart from Jonno’s point  (I.E it’s best not dig yourself a hole you cannot get out of), I won’t attempt to summarise them because there is so much to learn from reading them all.  However I have a couple of points and questions.

From The Sailing Master (Mr Peers) I’ve learned the best place for the crew in this situation is kneeling just behind the centre board case facing forwards.  They should not attempt to counteract the boat rocking unless it is clearly rolled a long way. This position is helpful for several reasons:

a)   Crew weigh needs to be at the stern and low down to counteract the bow digging-in and causing the boat to pivot on it.

b)   The crew can check the water ballast has not drained out or if necessary fill the tank by opening the main hatch. BTW the filling plug is uselessly slow in this situation.  If there is water swilling about the bottom of the boat it can usefully be directed into the tank by opening the main hatch.  On Gladys I have reversed the direction of one of the almost useless self bailers to face forward and removed the pivoted plate so it can operate as scoop INTO the tank when deployed.  Works well, with a most satisfying fountain of water into the tank.

c)   The crew is in a suitable posture for praying to whatever deity floats their boat. Some skippers appeal to Holy Ships but as a not-very-good-Christian, I find Psalm 23 appropriate, especially this version -  http://www.appleseeds.org/sailors_23rd-psalm.htm. 

If you don’t have a crew, then its all more difficult and I refer you for help to point c) above and perhaps a drogue.  Apart from Rory’s contribution no one much mentions using drogues.  I find this interesting, many reputable authors including Slocum, Voss, Smeeton, Dye and Barnes, consider them useful.  This also is an interesting reference:

https://books.google.ie/books?id=oJ3aQMG-J1MC&pg=RA3-PA141&lpg=RA3-PA141&dq=slocum+drogues&source=bl&ots=MFU-iCs-gf&sig=CLI-G81hlE1ZUoeX61DrxcVjCeo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi629HaqNbLAhWKbhQKHRIYD4oQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=slocum%20drogues&f=false

Despite all this literature I have not knowingly met anyone with real life experience of them.  I would have thought that deploying a drogue from the stern (strongly made (not just a bucket), well attached and deployed without jerking and not into breaking seas) would usefully slow and stabilise the boat. 

Does anyone have strong views or real-life experience of drogues?

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Graham W]

It's not really experience of using a drogue in extremis but I did try out one on Bala when head to a strong wind and was drifting backwards at 2 knots (according to the GPS). I had bought one of those conical bright orange vinyl types because Sail Caledonia specified it (or a bucket on a rope) as obligatory equipment.

I trailed it over the bow on a long piece of string and was surprised that it only knocked half a knot off my speed.

[Tony]

Hi, Graham.
How big was your drogue? Considering the effort required to pull a bucket through the water I,too, would have thought that a proper drogue would have slowed the boat by considerably more than half a knot.
I suppose that even a small version would keep you head to wind or, when trailed astern,  stop the boat  from surfing and possibly broaching in big seas so worth having aboard if you do a lot of coastal work. I wonder how big a "parachute" would be needed to cut down drift to next to nothing? (I've had a brief look at the Internet but found little information applicable to small boats.)

[Graham W]

How big was your drogue? Considering the effort required to pull a bucket through the water I,too, would have thought that a proper drogue would have slowed the boat by considerably more than half a knot.
I suppose that even a small version would keep you head to wind

I think I must have the small version, which I now see is suitable for boats of up to 5.5m http://www.seamarknunn.com/acatalog/Waveline-Sea-Anchor-Drogue-600-X-800mm---Orange-MTWL_3111.html#SID=847.  The next size up is 1m x 1.5m and is quoted as being suitable for boats of up to 7m.

[Tony]

Hi, Graham.
Ah! That might explain it.
If you decide to upgrade your drogue to the larger size I maybe could ease the pain by making an offer for your 600 x 800 version. "Four Sisters" is 5.8m long, but very light  so I might find it useful.

I'll look out for the add - "One drogue. Red. Never raced or railied, full service history."

[Matthew P]

Thank you Graham for sharing your experience. Has anyone else tried a drogue? I think drag forces increase faster than speed increases.  I'm sure a mathematician can put this more elegantly and throw in a nice drag force/speed through water graph to illustrate it. In other words I would expect a decent drogue to have little effect below 2 kts but become increasingly effective as speed increases to say 5kts.  But I have no experience of trying this out so I'm open to correction. 

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Graham W]

In a similar vein, the price of drogues increases exponentially too. The drogue for a 7m boat is twice the price of a drogue for a 5.5m boat. That probably explains why I didn't buy it last time around.

[SteveWD]

Our two-up cruiser racing experience showed that if you have lazy jacks you can reef on a run by centring the mainsheet and then reefing: keep loose sail to minimum with light tension on the halyard opposing the reefing force and the lazy jacks constraining any remaining loose sail.

If you don't have lazy jacks, I would never use a drogue of the stern if I wanted to turn or reef downwind because the boat will slow, increasing pressure on the sails  - not what you want - and when you start to turn the drag will oppose the turn leaving you slow with the boat fighting the turn upwind - a recipe for a capsize or knockdown.

Instead, go as fast as you like downwind and start a very LOW rate of turn towards the wind with the mainsheet loosed right off. Enjoy the screamer as it goes through the broad and beam reaches and then, when it starts flapping, back the jib, fix the helm right down, heave to and reef in comfort.

[Peter Taylor]

With regard to drogues, drag increases roughly proportional to the area but is dependent on the square of the speed (or thereabouts).  So at slow speeds the drogue is ineffective. 

Yes, it takes a lot of strength to pull a bucket through the water, but it also takes a lot of strength to hold a model boat in the air with it's stern pointing into a strong wind.  Now compare the size of our sails to those on a model boat!  The drogue has to exert a lot of force to slow a boat, to the extent that an effective drogue is likely to need a "capsize" line to allow you to recover it.

But I'm with SteveWD.  The last thing you want is to try to anchor the hull to the water using a drogue.  I'd get the centreboard up and let the boat slide sideways as the wind hits it!

Peter