Reefing and Changing Course When Sailing Fast Downwind

[Matthew P]

I'd like some advice please. What is the safest way to reduce sail and turn into wind when sailing hard pressed downwind in reasonably large waves?

https://youtu.be/BbGbWQksY84 shows a video of Graham coming back from the River Yealm to Portsmouth on a blustery day during the English Raid in 2015.  Graham's GPS record is attached showing Turacco (GRP BR20 Gaff Rrg) regularly hit 7.5 knots.  Graham muttered a couple of times something about a "ship" - I think that's what he said .  We probably hit 10 knots and the underlying data shows that we hit over 14 knots at one stage but that’s not very reliable. On this occasion it was exciting and fun. We were sailing directly back into Portsmouth harbour with plenty of shelter in which to slow down and safely change course.  Turaco had her centre board up, water ballast in and at least one reef in her gaff-rigged main at the time but even so putting in another reef or turning across waves and wind would have been challenging.

In other circumstances sailing hard-pressed down wind could be a serious situation if a change of course is imperative to avoid landfall or some other hazard and there is a good chance (as I once proved) of broaching leading to a capsize.  Of course the text book answer is to reef early and don't get caught with too much sail - and always have water ballast at sea.  But it is possible to get caught, so:

a) How best to reef when sailing downwind? - either with a gaff or with a Bermuda
b) How best to turn into wind?
c) Would a drogue be useful and if so how should it be deployed?

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Graham W]

As Matthew says, we were racing in the English Raid, so we took a certain amount of risk - the safety boat was keeping an eye on us.

If we hadn't been in such a hurry, the mizzen would have been furled for starters. I would also be interested to see answers to Matthew's questions about turning and reefing. You can see in the video how I am struggling with the tiller and I think turning across the wind in those conditions might have been riskier than keeping going and hoping for the best. Perhaps do it on the aft-facing slope of a large wave?

The video was taken on the homeward leg and I probably spied the 'holy ship' when we were going at our fastest. We had to blast through all that wind and those large waves on the way out. It was wet and uncomfortable and most of the fleet retired half way out. The BR20 performed brilliantly, as usual.

[garethrow]

An intersting question Matthew - and I can identify with the feeling of downwind holy ship anxiety. I suppose one is most likely to get into that sort of predicament when racing - and you tend to throw more caution to the wind.

I have never, touch wood, been in a situation to feel coming up into wind is too perilous to attempt. Your scenario though is no different to that of coming to the end of a downwind leg of a race to harden up onto the beat - without a broach / capsize. Deploying a drogue is a thought - but I would be cautious about its size in view of the considerable force exerted on any drogue at 7+ knots - perhaps just a length of rope with a knot / rag in the end? In the absence of drogues my technique is to try and pick a moment just after a wave has passed and you have come off the surf into a trough, and then go into a gradual turn into wind without sheeting in too much - so as to spill wind  from the main and jib, but keep a bit of tension in the mizzen to encourage her to head up + having all crew ready to move to balance. If I were doing this for a reefing  / sail down exercise I would have about half plate.

This is probably not what the seamanship manual would advise - but it seems to work for me in a Storm 17.

As for water ballast - what's that?!

If everything has gone horribly wrong and the wind has got up beyond controlable limits - I am not sure what I would do. There is no way I could reef  / get the sail down with the weight of wind in it without damaging the rig - so coming up into wind is a must. Capsizing in those sort of rough conditions with no safety cover could be fatal - so imperative to stay upright. A drogue might just be a life saver here - giving enough restraint to come up into wind in a controlled manner to allow me to drop the main - but I have never tried this!

Regards

Gareth
Gwennol Teifi S17

[IanEagland]

Hi

No experience of this (we don't get our BayRaider fo another 3 weeks) but could you brail the main with the topping lift in extremis? Then get head to wind to actually reduce sail.

Regards

Ian

[Andy Dingle]

Indeed a situation that is best avoided - but very easy to find yourself in.
So first off thanks for posing the question Matthew - I'd wager there has been a few balding heads being scratched out there in Swallow Yachts world.

As Gareth says we probably think 'what would I do in that situation and in my own boat?'.
My comments are not any form of advice, but just what would be running through my head if I were there - if indeed I could gather any constructive thought when spying that Holy Ship bearing down on me...
Just discussion points really.

In a Bayraider, I'd lower the centre board fully down, to give as much grip on the water as possible. Centre the mizzen to depower it. If 'goose winging' the jib, bring it over and use the wind shadow of the main to furl it - difficult to 'reef' the jib on a BR, so to be safe I'd put it away completely.
Scandalise the main by lowering the main halyard and/or raise the topping lift a bit by to depowering it. I'd go for lowering the halyard - one thing less to do when you do reef down properly.
Check the water ballast is still in (!) - going at that speed a leaking bailer - or one not closed properly could empty the tanks very quickly.
If that Holy Ship is really beginning to be dispersed into the wind, and life is getting serious, start the engine - indeed, unless you are a total purist, then do this anyway. If it is not already lowered it's drag will help as well.
Ease the main in, again to depower whilst still running down wind and look for best spot to start the turn between waves - a bit of flat water? But as you start to turn across the wind, be prepared to spill, crew weight at windward of course -  At this point I'm thinking that the speed of the boat with the weight of ballast and still with some power in the main, you can safely-ish bear up into a reach - working the main as necessary to maintain the speed (it wouldn't do at all to stall the boat at this point). Don't forget the mizzen, it will need easing off to depower, but, assuming you are still upright (!), then use the mizzen as you pull the helm in, to 'weather cock' the stern downwind and pushing the bow up into a close reach and into the wind - I see Graham suggests furling away the mizzen - a fair point, but in my experience in a BR in strong wind, it can be extremely useful, especially for steering.

At this point - as I say, unless you're a total purist, I would use the engine to keep the boat into the wind (and waves) - exactly as I do when raising the main in any conditions anyway, the mizzen will be invaluable at this point again.
I wouldn't try and 'heave to' to reef down - if the wind blew the jib off, which it will do, you could be in serious trouble. If you leave it out and even if you could keep it into the wind, it would flog itself to death.
Consider dropping the main completely and sail with just jib and mizzen, or deeply reefing down - depending on course and wind/wave direction I suppose.
I wouldn't really use any kind of drogue, unless running for some distance down wind. The object is to turn up into the wind, and the last thing you want is something holding your stern back as you turn and then, as Gareth says, only use some ropes..
Has anyone rigged and used a preventer in these sorts of conditions?

Repair to the nearest bar as soon as possible for remedial debriefing...

As I say - this is what I would hopefully consider (fat chance of that in real life!) - Not any sort of 'advice' or 'how to', I'm sure others will no doubt have a different way/version - but it is healthy discussion nonetheless.


Cheers

[david]

I agree with Graham  that the BayRaider  handles  the waves well. My experience, not with  the  big wind you had. I am at 5 knots.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1ptlrj5K4

 

[Peter Cockerton]

Excellent thought process documented by Andy Dingle and with crew very "doable".
Very different when solo, the last thing you want to do is risk a broach by leaving the helm even with a "Tiller Tamer of some sort.

Reefing the main on this point of sail in my opinion even with crew, Bermudan or Gaffe would not be possible, i have seen videos of yachts using very powerfull two speed winches to reef Bermudan mains on this point of sail, obviously not an option for us.

No experience with drogues, but as Andy commented the risk of stopping the boat getting head to wind to support the reefing exercise were looking for doesn't bear thinking about

First option with no obstructions stay on present course keep everything stable, look for flatter water ahead and potentially a bit of shelter. Get some centreboard down, just enough for steerage but some leeway on turn will reduce the chances of a broach in my opinion. Turning round to drop the outboard to increase drag desirable but one moment of lack of concentration and you risk gybing. Check your footing and clear the decks of any obstructions, loss of foot gripping will be disastrous when you bring her around. get the jib on the same tack as the main, if you haven't implemented the mizzen mod to prevent 180 degree swing if sheets become uncleated be very carefull not to touch the wrong sheet, hopefully you have a least put a knot in the sheet to prevent it slipping and allowing the mizzen to travel beyond 90 degrees. Obvious but plan the direction change well ahead of any obstruction so a gybe is not in the equation. Implement the direction change just after the wave has peaked and boat on back edge, keep the sheets eased so the wind spills as she come around, make sure the boat is not on a beam reach to the waves when the next wave hits you as a broach will be very likely. When the boat is through the wind sheet the Mizzen amidships, ease the jib and main, settle down and change your sail plan when all has calmed down.

That's my two penny worth.

Peter Cockerton

[Graham W]

Peter's got a point about sailing solo - a moment's inattention while you do something else can be disastrous, whether it be dropping the outboard down, putting out a drogue or grappling with the mizzen.  The mainsail is the main event in these conditions and everything else is subsidiary, especially if the jib is self-tacking.  I've nearly capsized several times by doing something minor like reaching for a bottle of water and losing focus momentarily.  From what I remember, Michael too. 

Another question because I haven't tried it - if you're roaring downwind on the back-facing slope of a wave and want to turn upwind, even with the centreboard partially down, will the boat respond to the tiller smartly enough or because of deceleration are you going to be caught sideways on by the next wave?

It seems like the best course when solo is to grit your teeth, keep going and think of England.

[jonno]

Matthew poses interesting questions and there are some thought-provoking replies here.

We were in the same event as Turaco and were one of those who turned back.  Water ballasted, with one reef in and three of us aboard Ella, we were overcanvassed.  We considered putting in a second reef.

Instead, we turned back - before we got to the Great Mew Stone.  Here’s the rationale.  I am not slick at reefing Ella’s gunter rig.  The sea was bouncy.  I’m not sure we would have wanted to continue, even with a second reef.  And things go wrong.  There was less to go wrong running for home than in attempting to reef and carry on.

We had a speedy return to Mountbatten.  It felt secure.

Doesn’t answer Matthew’s questions though.

John

[Rob Johnstone]

I think between them Andy and Peter have proposed the likeliest soutions. if you know there is shelter not far off ahead  it's probably least risk to carry on to it than to try to turn nad risk a broach or dismast.

Nice to have these thought experiments at home by the fire - let's hope they don't get tested in reality!

Rob J

[Matthew P]

I'd be interested by what Tim has to say. 

Ristie was one of three boats in the 2015 Loch Ness Challenge that encountered boisterous down-wind sailing with the necessity to turn back into wind and wave at the end, or hit the shore.  One of the three boats (not a Swallow boat, more a dinghy) capsized despite a strong crew.  And Ristie was also with Turaco on the Portsmouth-Yealm trip on the "Holy Ship!" occasion.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Michael Rogers]

You haven't had a really irritating contribution from me for some time, so here goes.

Start with junk rig (yes, I warned you): take in as many reefs as you need to on any point of sailing, including dead downwind. Turning to windward - have the sail well reefed and sheeted well out, at least at 90 degrees (no shrouds to foul the sail): plate/board half down: choose your moment, sail her round, leaving the sail well out and therefore de-powered to guard against broaching: but as soon as you are round far enough to reach, haul the mainsheet smartly to drive her forward, adjusting the board/plate as necessary. Once on new course, shake unnecessary reefs out (as easily as putting them in) if conditions permit.

I whole-heartedly endorse Graham's comment about the need for total concentration in difficult conditions, particularly if sailing solo. 'Nuff said (elsewhere).

Michael Rogers  (Junk-rigged Trouper 12 'Cavatina')

[Tony]

I'm lucky in this respect. The rotating mizzen mast on "Four Sisters" can help avoid a broach when moving from a dead run to a reach (or head wind) in one of two ways.
1. While running down wind let the mizzen sheet run free.  The mizzen will weathercock into the cockpit - thrashing wildly and making a niusance of itself. As you turn off the wind it will weathercock back over the gunnel - pull in as much as the sheet as you need to put the mizzen back to work and stop the damn thing thrashing.
2. Normally when running in anything of a wind I would furl the mizzen. It only takes seconds to slack off the snotter and heave on the furling line. There's no furling drum. Its just wrapped around the mast. I posted a drawing of this system some months back. Not sure if it can be adopted by BR 20s without altering the mizzen step arrangements.

During both procedures the mainsail, being a balanced lug, looks after itself. You just firm up the mainsheet as a you come around.
The mizzen on the CBL is quite a powerful driving sail and so, if not carefully watched when running, will cheerfully spin you around and lay you flat in the granddaddy of all broaches given half a chance. With the  mizzen furler,  getting rid of the mizzen and re-setting it is so quick that there's no need to get caught out.

[Tony]

Just a comment......
I was discussing this thread (and the time we rolled "Four Sisters" )with a friend up the pub. He sails a 30' Maxi (poor chap) and is of the opinion that small boats shouldn't be out in rough weather. I suppose I agree in principle BUT ... and it's a big 'but' ..... everyone should try to find out how their boat behaves in extreme conditions and what better time to push things to the limit than when racing against other Swallow Boats with a safety boat in close attendance.
(....while giving the less adventurous amongst us a cheap laugh. Two of the highlights of Swallow Boats 2015 Raid were Matt's embarrassment and the sight of Graham W drying out enough cash on the pub table to buy the next round!)

[Rory C]

Thanks Matthew for starting such an interesting discussion. I have not yet found myself in this sort of predicament in a Swallow boat and it’s made me wonder what I’d try if I felt overpressed running downwind in my BRe.
When single handed I try to have a long mooring line rigged from a bow cleat through the fairlead and back (outside the shroud) to the cleat on the same quarter and the tail lead within reach of the helm. Assuming this is in place job 1) will be to tie the tail to the handle of my bucket (or empty log dumpy bag) so I’ve got a sea anchor ready.
2) make sure that all 3 sails are on the same gybe and the centreboard is at least half down, main sheet fully out,  jib sheet tail and main halyard within reach.
3) On a suitable wave crest (not surfing down one) luff up gently into a reach and trim mizzen and jib to sail on with the main fully depowered. Hopefully my tiller tamer will enable me to sail a slow and steady course across the waves while I drop the main entirely into the lazy jacks and get a tie or two round it.
4) Assuming there are other jobs to be done before bearing away to the original course I will roll up the jib, sheet in the mizzen firmly amidships and lift the rudder clear of the water. As the boat loses forward motion I’ll deploy the sea anchor and we should stay head to wind making slow progress astern downwind with no risk of the boat ‘tripping’ over its own rudder.
5) When ready to resume normal sailing i.e. fully reefed and all secured I would hope to be able to sail up towards my sea anchor to recover it alongside from the cockpit. I’ll have to try this sometime! If not it’ll have to be recovered over the bow and the line put back in the ready position before re-setting the sails.
Any comments anyone?
Rory C