Stoves

[Matthew P]

Has anyone got advice on cooking stoves?

Ideally it should be safe, effective, simple and quick to operate, stable (ie not a tottering tower) not bulky to stow and - cheap!

The convenience of gas bottle stoves (especially the cheap flat square type)appeals to me but I fear leaks causing gas to leak and collect in the bottom of the boat, especially the sump below the petrol driven outboard.  Am I over-concerned?

Spirit stoves might be a solution?  Trangia types have a good reputation but the cooking set models look a bit unstable and although light weight a bit dinky (crushable!).

I have a cherished old Primus which is fun to use but pressurised fuel and potential flare-ups are not acceptable on board.

Has anyone other ideas or recommendations?   

Matthew
Gadys BR20

[Graham W]

Matthew,

I have a complete set of kitchen units here in Ethiopia but for some reason it doesn't have a ring or cooker.  Don't ask!

So I cook regularly on my Trangia using meths, which is available out here.  It's slower than gas but still does the job and isn't nearly as risky to use in confined spaces.  It all seems reasonably robust but of course it is designed for backpacking rather being trodden on by crewmates, so is light and a bit deformable.

This (or something like it) may be an answer to the Trangia stability problem http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,415.msg2221.html#msg2221

[Peter Taylor]

I've enjoyed using a Trangia when camping on land, but for a boat would strongly recommend one of the flat square type "butane" stoves. With regard to leaks make sure you get one certified for indoor use. I use the Brightspark BS100.  These have a safety cut-off which stops the gas flow if the flame goes out.  Similarly it prevents the gas flow if the gas cylinder is primed but the flame not lit and you knock the nob.  These are more expensive than the "outdoor only" type... £30 to £40 depending on the finish (compared to less than £20 for an indoor model).  By the way, note that the cheaper outdoor ones are often advertised as having a  "safety cut-off" but this only refers to a device to prevent over pressure (which all the stoves have), not a cut-off for the flame being out.

On Seatern I've been using one of those expensive Origo spirit stoves using bio-ethanol to avoid the smell of meths.  This has the advantage of working at low (near zero C and below) temperatures but is sometimes hard to light and is slower than the butane type... provided the butane cylinder is not too cold.  I'm seriously thinking of swapping over to using a butane stove (which I presently use to power my Pan200 boat heater).  For most conditions the much cheaper butane stove would be far superior. It boils faster and gives off much less CO in use.

With regard to using butane in cold weather, use a "Butane" cartridge containing a butane/propane mixture (e.g. Brightspark A4 Butane Battery) rather than a pure butane one.  Most of the "butane" cartidges, particularly cheaper ones, are pure butane and you have to read the contents to see if propane is included.  Also be prepared to sleep with it in your sleeping bag (make sure the valve protector is in place)  and for faster cooking in cold weather used two cartridges, warming one while the other is in use  (but not above 50C !).

More info on my own experiences in my Seatern blog, look for equipment pages under summary files.

Peter

[jonno]

Another fine debate you've got us into, Matthew.

I'll use a Trangia.  I fear meths less than gas.  I intend to try to fit a cheap spill-proof meths burner in my Trangia (from www.speedsterstoves.co.uk ).  I'm surprised by Matthew's and Graham's comments: dinky and deformable.  Trangias seem robust to me.  And I'm not overly concerned about stability.  But maybe I'll change my mind when I try it out in the boat.

If I was prepared to spend money, that Origo looks the part.

I'm more concerned about the proximity of the petrol outboard motor and the spare can of petrol.  My preferred solution, learnt when back-packing, would be not to cook.  No stove means no waiting around for food, no fears about the tent going up in flames or else freezing to death tending the stove outside the tent.  It means no cooking paraphernalia, no washing up.  It also means no crew: I've yet to convince anyone.

Lone John

[Tony]

Choice of stove on a BR20 or other open boat depends on how much cooking you do. If you just want a brew-up, go with the Trangia. The back packers cook set has a great, well shielded kettle but choose the gas burner  or multi-fuel version, not the alcohol burner. (Meths burners are efficient but burn dry without warning and, if you spill any meths when re-filling, like as not you will set your trousers afire sooner or later. )
If you are cruising in a dinghy, not just day sailing from pub to pub, you will want to do some proper cooking ...and that means proper pans. Backpackers need ultra light gear so Trangia pans etc are thin aluminium. They heat up quickly (saving fuel) and cool down even quicker. The only thing that is good for is fresh mussels, a stir fry or maybe something in a tin. Baked beans, ready made stew, cook-in sauce  and other abominations. Try anything more ambitious and it will stick and burn.  Get some decent, heavy pans especially for the boat, don't pinch them from your kitchen but - most important, this - use them at home first to season them. Try out your recipes before you go sailing, too.You don't want to mess about when you're cold and hungry.
Serious pans need a serious burner. Paraffin pressure stoves churn out the most heat but who wants paraffin on a small boat? Everything aboard will reek of it inside 5 minutes! I use two of the stoves shown in the photo. The cheap one shown costs less than a tenner and a posh stainless steel model will set you back around £30. They are stable, give an easily controlled flame, have piezo-electric ignition and pack away in a neat case. You can't pack them away dangerously hot as you have to reverse the trivet to shut the case. The cartridges are relatively expensive but self-seal so no need for a vented gas locker. I never cook or eat in the cabin, always in the open cockpit. This avoids problems with condensation, carbon monoxide and spillages caused by passing ferries. Cook under the spray hood if it's raining. (The only serious fire I've seen on a dinghy was caused by an attempt at a fry-up in the rain. The rain sinks to the bottom of the cold oil and when it heats up and boils, oil is splattered everywhere.)
What to cook is down to personal taste and common sense ...and the limits imposed by your ability to clean your pans and dispose of waste without polluting the boat or the environment. e.g. Use rice, not potatoes. (No peelings to dispose of.)    I have a score of well tried recipes which I'll post on my blog ...one day.
I have to agree with Jonno in one respect.  There are plenty of waterside pubs serving food and good draught beer so don't cook if you dont have too!

[Peter Taylor]

I think I'm becoming a bit of an anorak with regard to butane stoves and "butane" cylinders but it took me a long time to realise they are not all the same! Beware if you are buying!

A quick look at Amazon suggests that the stove illustrated by Tony comes in two identical looking types. The "Campingaz Camp'Bistro Cooker" is available at £8-30 and another type - "Campingaz Camp'Bistro Cooker with Stopgas System" for £39... apparently its only available in France and Germany but you can buy on Amazon.   The "stopgas" system stops the flow of gas if the flame is not lit.  That is similar to the almost identical looking Brightspark BS100 which I use  (price £30 or more for stainless steel). 

I'd recommend the "stop-gas" feature on a boat since if you cook in the open the flame could blow out and there's a (slight?) chance that butane might accumulate somewhere.  If you cook in the cabin (eg boil a kettle) then it would seem even more important to have that cut-off. (if you do cook in the cabin be aware that CO is produced... get a digital CO alarm!) .

All these square "butane" cookers look almost identical and it can be difficult to be sure which you are buying.  You can tell if the stove has a cut-off device because when you light it you have to hold the gas control knob at full open for 5 to 10 seconds while the cut-off device warms up. See if the instructions tell you to do that!

The cylinders also come in different versions.  The Campingaz CP250 "Butane" cartridge recommended for their Camp'Bistro Cooker is a propane/butane mix with 220g of gas in the cylinder.  Again that is similar to the Brightspark A4 "Butane" Battery.  Cheaper cylinders usually contain 200g of butane (no propane). In warm weather it won't make much difference (indeed the cheaper "butane only" might even be better).  In cold weather butane/propane is better particularly if you have a fresh cartridge.  In very cold weather use a fresh cartridge to warm up a part used one (with care!), then swap over. If it's below freezing either keep a cartridge intimately close to you before use, or use a spirit stove!

Sorry, I'll now retreat to my butane/propane warmed BC20!
Peter

[Matthew P]

I like Jonno's don't-cook solution but raw Mars bars lose appeal after a day so I prefer to deep fry them in batter and have hot chocolate sauce with my Kendal mint cake after. And Mrs Peacock expects the sort of fare that Tony has promised us recipes for.  So I need a stove.

I had not realised, until Peter explained, the subtle but vital safety differences between cheap outdoor square stoves and indoor versions fitted with stop-gas systems.  Although I have used them up until now I think there is an inherent risk with gas collecting in the bottom of the boat, so I am attracted by spirit stoves.

As Graham knows, but is kind enough not to mention, my 17 stone teetering about in size 12 boots will crush most things so Trangias are not an option. Meanness and bulk rule out Origos although I just missed a double burner version on Ebay for £80.

I had a look at Jonno's suggested www.speedsterstoves.co.uk which offers my sort of technology; simple, cheap and hopefully effective.  So now I plan to gut my square gas stoves and fit (well, wedge-in) spirit burners instead.  The square stove carcasses are robust, stable and as Tony points out pack down neatly and maybe I could use large spirit burners for rapid heat and smaller ones for simmering. I notice Speedster Stoves also offer efficient looking foldable heat shields that fit tightly around pans, so even with heavy pans favoured by Tony (and me, actually) spirit burners will be effective.

Although I'm not planning to cook in confined spaces, do spirit burners generate much condensation, or worse, noxious gas?

Thanks for your advice everyone and I look forward to Tony's recipes.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Peter Taylor]

Although I'm not planning to cook in confined spaces, do spirit burners generate much condensation, or worse, noxious gas?

COMPLETE combustion of either ethanol (as in meths, or less smelly, bio-ethanol) or butane produces "harmless" carbon dioxide and water vapour and nothing else.  The proportion of water vapour (compared to CO2) produced is greater for ethanol - resulting in more condensation if used in the boat. With complete combustion the flame should be pale blue in colour.  However, neither my Origo stove nor my Brightspark "butane" stove achieve complete combustion as evidenced by dangerous carbon monoxide (CO) being detected by my digital alarm.  Any yellow in the flame is also evidence of incomplete combustion and associated soot and CO formation.

In summer conditions the butane stove is being supplied with fuel at pressure so burns faster and produces more heat than a spirit stove.  The spirit stove also burns less efficiently and needs to be burning longer  Thus the spirit stove produces more water vapour and a (measurably) greater amount of carbon monoxide.  A given weight of butane produces over twice as much heat as the same weight of ethanol - so you have to carry a greater weight of fuel in the boat. It is for all these reasons I'm thinking of replacing my expensive Origo spirit stove with a much cheaper Brightspark butane stove.

The snag is in winter things change. A butane cartridge contains butane (!) which (because it is under pressure) is liquid and must boil to provide the gas burnt by the stove. At atmospheric pressure the boiling point of butane is around zero.  As the butane boils off it cools the cartridge significantly.  So if the temperature is, say 8C, the cartridge may cool to near freezing and the butane supply to the stove is poor to non-existent.  Cooking with butane will then take much longer and more CO and water vapour is produced.  In these conditions a spirit stove is better.

The boiling point of propane is -42C hence the propane can act to keep a butane/propane cartridge at pressure and improve the cold weather performance. That is why propane  is added to Campingaz and Brightspark "butane" cartridges.  But, starting with a new cartridge, the propane will boil off faster and the proportion of butane in the cartridge will increase as the cartridge is used.  If it's cold, always start with a new cartridge.

So in winter a spirit stove will work when a butane stove will not... unless you make sure you can start with a warm cartridge; e.g. keep it in your sleeping bag at night! And while using a new cartridge carefully warm up, and then swap to, a part used one. Placing a cartridge in warm water (into which you can put your fingers without scalding) should provide a safe amount of warmth.

Peter

[Matthew P]

Thank you Peter for your explanation in plain English but based on science.

Thank you too for your detailed and useful notes at  http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/diary_2015_may.php?year=-15

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Graham W]

Chicken Tikka Masala (tinned from M&S) and rice cooking on my Trangia in Addis Ababa.  What could be more English?

[Tony]

Tabasco and chilli sauce in the background. Says all you need to know about M&S curries!
Those pans look a little more substantial than the ones I got with my Trangia - my 30 year old Trangia, that is.
Still going strong but never on my boat.
Meths scares me !

[Matthew P]

I'll instruct my quartermaster to add M&S tinned Chicken Tikka Masala to Gladys's provisions list. 

W H Tilman always took Tobasco sauce with him on his Mischief voyages but I'm not sure how well it goes with Mars bars deep fried in batter.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Tim Riley]

I shall as always be using my MSR with Coleman fuel. Have always cooked in a tent and never had a problem. Much prefer the power to heat water fast and the control of the flame for simmering. Much better than waiting for a guttering trangia or a gas stove that needs a new cartridge every few minutes. We tested it against a trangia at Christmas to settle an argument and it boiled 3 litres before the trangia did 1. I think a chicken tikka would be about a minute and a half ( although I guess in Addis the starting temp is different!)
Currently working on some sort of galley arrangement to mount it in one of the lockers but as yet despite various bits of ply cut the final version has not come into my head yet. Hopefully it will before all the wood gets too small ..

[Jonathan Stuart]

Like Tim I am a fan of my MSR Whisperlite - boils water very quickly and efficiently, fuel is readily available and it can be fully stripped down and serviced if there are ever any problems. My other favourite is a Coleman Alpine gas stove and that's the one I more often use on the boat. It disconnects from the gas cans when not in use so packs away very small and I've never known a self-sealing can to leak. Also means you can use cold weather fuel mixes if required. I note that MSR now makes a Whisperlite Universal that runs on upturned gas cylinders as well as liquid fuels so I would buy one if I could justify another stove...

My very simple galley arrangement is two blocks of wood that fit over the rowing thwart to make a larger table - see attached pic. Wood blocks are held together by webbing on the top and a line underneath (attached to one block and that runs to a clamcleat on the other block) which can be tensioned to hold the blocks in place.

[Graham W]

I was reading the Jan/Feb issue of Water Craft the other day (it takes a while to get out here) and noticed that at the top of page 65 is a photo of Roger Barnes with his kettle and stove on board his 14ft cruising dinghy.  The kettle is a Trangia and judging by the imperfect yellow combustion in the background, his burner is too.

Now Barnes, in addition to being President of the DCA, is a living god in the dinghy cruising world (his mostly female crewmates seem to think so anyway).  So if Trangia is good enough for him, it's good enough for me. We could confirm this one way or another by seeing what he says in his book 'The Dinghy Cruising Companion' - but my copy is 4,000 miles away.  I don't think boiling speed is of the essence, otherwise we would all be roaring around on pestilential jet skis, instead of sailing serenely in our Swallows.