Is a bay raider a better option for sailing for people with disabilities

[Anyone can uk]

In our search for a suitable boat for our business running adventures for people with additional needs I fell across the Bay Raiders Range. I had been looking at Longboats, Luggers, and Hawks.

The role of the boat will be as our multi-person teaching, excursion and expedition boat. The idea for going after boats with keelboat like stability is that she should be single instructor run (without safety boat) - this makes sailing affordable to small care bubble groups. We have small fast sailng canoes which are our current goto boats for people with mobility needs but they are not great for people with visual or cognitive needs because the instructor is not directly on board.

I would love some feedback from owners as to its suitability.

Here's my operational needs and desires list:

   Requirements

Minimum day sailing capacity family of 4 plus instructor

Durability - this will be teaching boat it needs to be able to take a knock without serious damage - this would be my first contact with an aero-sandwich hull material.

Trailer launched and stored (mast up) - we move around to service both North England and Scotland lake and coastal areas.

Single handed launch

High stability when needed - must be justifiable to treat it as a keel boat for risk management purposes


    Desirable

Good options for shelter

Options for providing toilet facilities if needed - many peoples health needs restrict them to always being near a loo

Space to site a specialist seat forward facing in cockpit centre - and see out ahead

Suitable to make some adventurous passages - I will be losing our own yacht to fund this it would be great to maintain the ability to make Irish Sea passages

Can sleep adventurous family or 3 plus dog occasionally


Any thoughts and feedback much appreciated

Chris
www.anyonecan.uk

[Graham W]

Chris,

I applaud what you are trying to achieve for those with additional needs.  Let’s hope that the virus allows you to pick up your activity level next spring.  In the meantime, you are planning ahead for the right sort of vessel, with risk management in mind, and have looked at some of the obvious candidates from the Drascombe range, plus the Hawk.

I can see why you are looking at the BR20 or BRe for trailering and single-handed launching and retrieval - they are really light and yet with the water ballast in are stable on the water.  However, I have concerns about two of the specific criteria that you mention.  Others may disagree with me:
Size of crew - thinking about how many I would be happy to take out sailing on my BR20, I prefer an absolute maximum of three (plus me) and only if they are really agile.  I think your minimum crew of four plus skipper would be too many in anything other than light winds.   Even in those conditions, gusts can double wind speed temporarily and the BR20 has quite a big sail area for its size, unless significantly reefed.  I would worry about extreme heeling in those circumstances and the impact that that would have on inexperienced crew.  Motoring or rowing is a different matter and I’ve had up to five plus me on board.
Durability: the BR20 and BRe are like racehorses, built for speed. The Drascombe range is simpler and more heavily built and is therefore more likely to absorb misuse and hard knocks.  That said, I’ve had my BR20 for ten years now and it’s still going strong.  I disgraced myself once by t-boning another BR20 in a glancing sort of way during a race start - there was minimal damage on either side.  This was followed not long afterwards by both unballasted boats turtling in sudden downdrafts but that’s a different story!  I’m aware of another BR20 that was t-boned and wasn’t so lucky.

I think organisations like the Sea Scouts use Drascombe Longboats and Gigs because they are simple, durable and can take quite large crews without too much risk.  But then they are less manouevrable off the water and don’t sail nearly so well.

As for your list of desirable attributes, I think the BR range (and especially the BRe) can accommodate nearly all of them without too much difficulty.

What do others think?

[garethrow]

Chris - it is always worth talking to Swallow Yachts about specific requirements and adaptations. I am sure they would have suggestions to make that would give you food for thought.

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Sea Simon]

I would substantially agree with GW's thoughts; especially re crew numbers and the need for some agility.

However, I have nil experience of operating boats in this way - either for a charity, or for "disabled" crew.

Hopefully these thoughts may be of interest?

I've had both a Drascombe Lugger and a BRe as " nearly new" in the past 5 years. Selling my Lugger for a BRe.
The Lugger is a different beast entirely; much heavier and more solidly built, and this obviously affects durability, sailing ability/performance and ease of movement on land.
The Lugger trailer was far superior - in a different league (info available - search on here if this matters to you).
The local "charities" hereabouts seem to operate Drascombe Luggers/Longboats/Gigs.

When I first decided that I valued sailing performance over the qualities of the Lugger (as mentioned above), I viewed three BRs that had been "pooled boats" operated by University of Plymouth "Marine Faculty" apparently as some sort of "P.E." type facility.
The boats were not particularly "competitively priced".
They had been left afloat in a marina.
I could not believe the incredibly poor condition of the boats; supposedly they were 3-4 years old.
Fittings/sails/spars/trailers were all pretty much trashed.
Hulls and foils all damaged to some degree.
At least one of the boats would have needed a formal structural survey imo, if I was to buy.
I spent quite some time picking over what was imo, a lot of rubbish, made up one reasonable boat-set, and made an offer based on the (still) very poor condition of the equipment.
They refused...I went away, and never went back. Pleased I did!

I believe that these boats may later have been back to Swallow for a refurb, before sale? Wonder where they ended up?
I seem to recall the UoP were after something "more sexy", like RS Elite, or similar?

This experience almost put me off the Swallow boats, until I realised that the way UoP  (Plymouth Poly- my Alma Mater, for what that's worth - "The Bosun"would never have let us get away with abusing boats like these BR's clearly had been) were operating these relatively "delicate" dinghy-like boats was the issue.

I perhaps wouldn't have minded the work, if the price reflected that.
However, I faced swapping an immaculate top-spec 3 year old Lugger, for a very scrappy BR of similar vintage; with lots still to spend to get the entire BR "package" in reasonably good order, perhaps even into a fully usable condition?

So lessons in durability and pricing - Maybe?
I would also add - availability is also a consideration. You can see on this forum how much of a sellers market it seems to be at the moment? There are MANY more Luggers than BR's available.

To continue GW's analogy.
"Thoroughbred" BR v "Family pony" Lugger?

[Graham W]

“Carthorse” Longboat?  I think there is a small collection of them permanently moored at the southern end of Lake Bala.  They’ve been there for at least ten years and probably much longer, part of what used to be the Barclays Bank activities and training centre for its staff.  It’s now a centre for disadvantaged children.  The boats looked to be in pretty good condition last time I saw them.

I always wondered what happened to the University of Plymouth boats.  It was clear that they were very keen to get hold of BR20’s for their fleet, so it is surprising that they weren’t better looked after.

I used to have a Bill Bailiff Lune Whammel, which was built like a brick outhouse and sailed like one too.  I think you can still rent them at Glenridding on Ullswater.  Drascombes are built to somewhat similar robust standards but sail better to windward.

[Anyone can uk]

Thanks everyone for their input.

All the opinions and options have given us allot to think about.

We’ve decided that we’re pretty convinced that a BRE is the way forward for us.

It conforms to our principal of adapting experiences up to maximise inclusiveness rather than toning the activity down.

I love Drascombe designs and in the worst conditions they are the boat that lets you keep sailing but they are heavyweights and in moderate weather somewhat uninspiring.

The swallows are more expensive but there are some longer term savings: i don’t need yet another licence to tow them, they clearly cross the line for 1 staff sailing experiences, offer shelter without sacrificing the 6 person capacity and they hold their value well.

To pay for it I will have sadly to sell our adventure boat - an ancient Hummingbird 30, I also don’t have time to maintain a boat like this, with a new son and business.

We did try to make an offer on one but it was gone within 48 hours of the advert going up so unfortunately we missed it. 
 
So if you know of a BRE for sale or coming up please do let us know. 

Thanks for the opinions and viewpoints

Chris
Anyone Can uk