BayRaider vertical-hanging rudder

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi Graham, Graham here....

Interesting to see your experience with slightly less weather helm ....from the increase in forward inclination, over and above the angle of the transom.

This is my experience from years setting up other dinghy's
i.e. Try to get some blade forward of the pintle/ gudgeon line if you can.

Somewhat disappointing that the "step" is no longer horizontal...
Matt gets a lot right.

On the other issue being discussed.
It has always been my view that the pintle/gudgeon line should be vertical from an engineering fluid dynamics point of view.  I therefore assume the sloping transom is purely for aesthetics

Cheers
Graham B

[Graham W]

Graham,

I’ve got an industrial-sized belt sander on my new (very old) Shopsmith that would make short work of changing the canting angle at the top of the rudder.  I wouldn’t make a radical change, so I wouldn’t change the step angle by much either.  And I also have additional steps built in to the top of my stainless rudder stock.

What I don’t know is how to recoat the bit that has been sanded down, which I assume needs doing.  White gelcoat?

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi, recoating the sanded part?  I too would be thinking gel coat...but... it depends what / or if you break through into something else.  Foam or Ply presumably. 

Let us know !

[Graham W]

it depends what / or if you break through into something else.  Foam or Ply presumably. 

I hope not! I had thought from its substantial weight that it must be solid GRP.

[Charles Scott]

No Graham, not solid GRP, but a wooden core. How do I know? Well, driving a couple of miles with the tip of the rudder dragging on the road, some idiot ( moi ! ) having failed to make sure it was properly secured in the fully up position before setting off,  nicely exposed the cross section, losing about 6" off the rudder tip. I gouged out some of the core, enough to put in a new piece, then covered that in a few layers of glass fibre, and finally a layer of white gelcoat, which I then laboriously sanded down. You can hardly see the join, but the rudder tip is not quite standard shape!

[Graham W]

Mmmm. In which case, I might take a rain check on this.  Thanks for the warning.

[Matthew P]

To my insensitive touch I've always felt the rudder balance and the turning circle on my BR20 is just fine and needs no modification.

Altering the rudder angle-of-dangle might have knock-on effects:

a) loss of area in front of the pivot line will change the balance and increase tiller forces - tiring and less sensitive feedback

b) the combined centreboard and rudder centre of area might move aft and this could mean less natural weather helm, in other words the natural tendency for the boat to head into wind if the tiller is let go. This is a generally considered a desirable safety feature.  For more on this see https://www.nauticed.org/sailing-blog/weather-helm-vs-lee-helm-%E2%80%93-what-is-it-how-to-use-it/ 
I accept that mast rake, sail setting, centre board angle and many other factors come into play and so moving the rudder centre of area may not be very significant.

It's good to experiment but Graham's right to be cautious before making difficult-to-reverse changes.
 
Matthew
BR20 

[Llafurio]

...
Newer versions of both boats now have a different configuration.  This involves a new moulding inset into the stern, allowing the rudder to be hung vertically.  Those who have sailed both versions say that it lightens the helm considerably and allows for much faster tacking.  And presumably if you’re not fighting weather helm, it also provides faster progress to windward. ...

I very much doubt the above claims "lightens the helm" and " faster tacking". Could this be a marketing stunt to make customers believe they need to upgrade to the new BR20 Mk. 2 boats in order to stay competitive? Like previously the "USA rig" replacing the Gunter Rig?

[Graham W]

Silly me!  I had thought that this thread was harmless lockdown speculation on rudder pintle angles.  Something to ponder and entertain until sailing was allowed again, based on empirical observation and engineering expertise among several contributors.

It now appears that we were the unwitting dupes of a conspiracy by evil capitalists to make us upgrade our boats.  Even worse, they’ve tried it on before with the USA rig, clearly named after an industrial-military complex bent on world domination.

Luckily we have forum contributors who are not susceptible to mind games.  They have tested in real life either or both of these modifications.  They may even have been sober when they did so, which was a bonus.  They then reported back on the good and not so good.  Setting aside the pain in the wallet, it was mostly the former.

[Charles Scott]

Matthew P provided a link to a Nauticed post, which suggested the lift from a rudder being used to counteract weather helm would help the boat to get further upwind. I am afraid I don't understand that as surely the rudder lift will only affect the stern of the boat and turn it  toward  the wind rather than lift the whole hull up to windward? What am I missing? Also , the increase in drag from the rudder will slow the boat, and allow more leeway.  My own preference is to go for enough weather helm to be safe, but as little as possible beyond that.

[Helen and Chris]

I sailed Skylark for many years before having the 'cut and shut' and my only complaints about the handling were the curved path it took through the tack and having to fight the tiller in strong winds.  When I had the opportunity to sail a new version BRe I noticed the difference immediately.

Since having the surgery done on Skylark, I can report that it now turns sharply in the tack and has retained all the required weather helm to weathercock if I let go of the tiller.  In stronger winds, I used to have to hold the tiller directly (rather than the tiller extension) due to the weight on the helm - which further increased the boat's desire to turn into the wind as I could no longer sit out to keep the boat flat.  Now, as the wind increases, I can continue to perch on the side deck (never a comfortable experience) holding the tiller extension lightly between my finger tips.

All I need to do now is persuade Matt to shave the coaming off around the cockpit to make sitting out more comfy 

Helen
BRe #15 Skylark

[Llafurio]

After 14 years of BR20s, there may be reasons to come out with a Mk. II version. But they better be good and compelling because they broadly diminish the resale value of the "Mk.1" boats.

To change the hull for a new rudder arrangement just to aid people who struggle with weatherhelm is -on its own- not a good enough reason. Rudders cannot make miracles. Mastrake and centreboard angle are there for managing weatherhelm. As is timely reefing btw.

Just a handful of people know about the depth of my involvement with Swallowboats at the time. I started the "Raiders". I not just gave them their name.

The project was started about a perfect "Raidboat". A boat to excel -safely- in tough competition, through thick and thin, offshore and inshore, using sail, oars, and every seamanly trick in the book. Part of raiding is to be able to strike down the masts in a jiffy to proceed under oars into a headwind, through under bridges and overhanging trees, if required. The original Gunter Rig of the BRs could do that, the Bermudan rig that SwY introduced later, to better attract a U.S. clientele who do not know how to use or care for a Gunter, cannot.

Yeah, why not collect more suggestions and ideas from experienced BR sailors for a really improved BR20 Mk II version?
-The new vertical rudder arrangement may well be part of that.

C.

[Rob Johnstone]

At the risk of adding to the confusion, some of you will remember I had two BayCruiser 23's Vagabond (#10) and Riff Raff (#54). Vagabond had the rudder pivots following the line of the transom and, as originally rigged, had vicious weather helm and a terrible tendency to wander off course under power in marinas, leading to a number of narrow escapes. She was also very slow in the tack, particularly in light airs. After a year of so, I retrofitted the spreader rig and also reduced the rake of the mast. The result was a much more docile vessel as far as weather helm was concerned but the turning circle and tacking were no better. By raking the mast forward I found i coudl introduce lee helm and don't recommend it!
Riff Raff had the vertical rudder (as well as the spreader rig) and was a different vessel. The turning circle was much reduced and she was nimble across the wind - I can't remember getting into irons with her. I didn't have her long enough to experiment with mast rake.
So my vote is for the vertical rudder!
Helen, try a thich foam cushion - you can buy sheets of closed cell foam on Ebay. This foam, having closed cells doesn't act like a sponge. You can cut it into rectangles (using a old fashioned carving knife) and glue them (copydex) together to make up a thick, solid cushion to take the pain out of the cockpit edge. If you drill a hole at one end of the rectangle, you can put a rope through it so that (a) you don't lose the cushion and (b) you can use it as a fender!

 

[Llafurio]

At the risk of adding to the confusion, some of you will remember I had two BayCruiser 23's Vagabond (#10) and Riff Raff (#54). Vagabond had the rudder pivots....

Yes that adds to the confusion talking about a BayCRUISER 23 in a thread about the BayRAIDER (20).

I personally don't know the first thing about the BayCruiser 23, but I know some about the BayRaider and SeaRaider, which I -both- sailed and raced for 14 years. IMO and experience, both seaRaider and BayRaider do not require a vertical hung rudder, and if used as Raidboats should not have a  Bermudan rig which prohibits striking down the mast in mid race in a jiffy.

[Matthew P]

One of the joys of a mizzen is it can easily be adjusted to correct weather or lee helm or to extract the boat from irons. I never had weather or lee helm problems on my BR20.  Mizzens can also be used as an "aerial" rudder, a vital feature on a scary trimaran I owned that lacked rudder power, unlike my friendly BR20, .

My BR20 is gunter rigged.  I just wonder if the fat-head Bermudan rig has a centre of pressure aft of the gunter rig and is therefore susceptible to weather helm - or needs looser mizzen sheeting to compensate? 

Matthew
BR20 Gladys