BayRaider vertical-hanging rudder

[Graham W]

Or more sail at the pointy end?

[Llafurio]

...
My BR20 is gunter rigged.  I just wonder if the fat-head Bermudan rig has a centre of pressure aft of the gunter rig and is therefore susceptible to weather helm ....

Good point. Mine is Gunter rigged too. And never a sail balance problem with that, except that it had to be modified from the  original to become usable, of course. C.
 

[jonno]

Why 'of course'?

Thanks

John

[Matthew P]

"There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid."

Proverbs 30

While science attempts to answer these (Froud and Reynolds numbers anyone ?) I sometimes prefer a more mysterious, poetic explanation.  To me boats have personality and that's why I like them.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys   

[Llafurio]

...
Why 'of course'?
...

Hi John.

The original BR Gunter rig on the early boats was practically unusable. It was derived from the Drascombes, where it worked, but there were specific problems for the SR and the BR which were not addressed and solved by the yard for a considerable time. I am not sure they have ever.

: The Gunter yard jaws twisted sideways to windward when the boat sailed close hauled. Likewise, in connection with the square mast, the jaws jammed going up and down.
The carbon yard was not drilled through for the halyard as it was feared the hollow yard could be flooded through the holes during an inversion. Then, the carbon yard material was too whippy for its length. The luff could not be tensioned enough with the mast foot fitting supplied. Then, the yard was geared to be top-heavy, so went up and came down in a messy way. And, worst, the reefing was not prepared for properly.
And btw, the boats came without a boat manual for a considerable time, which may have offered solutions.

All this needed to be fixed of course, and could be fixed with very little effort. Only, the boatyard was slow to adopt what was needed. I think they brought the USA (Bermudan) rig out instead of perfecting the Gunter rig which would have been easier and less costly. Sadly, the USA rig has done away with two keywords for the BR: "Classic looks" - which the fat top Bermudan doesn't have, and "Raider", because the tall mast Bermudan rig cannot be struck down quickly as is required in many proper raids.

 

[TimLM]

Ah now Science has been catching up of late and yes Froud and Reynolds certainly have their place, I recommend the AC75 as an example. But poetry and beauty have much more sway with me. Hence a Gaff rig - addresses the 'Classic Looks' 2 foresails - addresses the balance, upwind ability and of course red sails.
I also had heavier weather helm than I was used to on skiffs and single handed dinghies. This we addressed by lifting the center board a touch with increased wind speed and marked the board accordingly.
The BRe has the setting of its' center board angle by tying a knot in the lifting rope which runs up against an eye. This is far to vague a measure (although the yard do measure this very carefully) but to prone to rope stretch and fiberglass panel deformation etc..
I careened Papagena and measured the angle of the centerboard and found it to be 80 degrees from the runners. By sailing her in light airs I found the right angle and tied a knot in the uphaul. Well twas another variable and 10 20  who knows how many iterations later spot on. Now I lift a little for medium wind strengths and more when strong. But of course it is a a bit of trial and error each time but I didn't have to adjust mast rake each time or rudder pintle or cant angles  - seriously easier and more immediate. Perhaps the original knot variability might account for different experiences with these boats?
So no 'American' rig for me but Gaff for beauty and much more Eagle, Serpent, Seas and Maids for me .....   

[Llafurio]

...
I careened Papagena and measured the angle of the centerboard and found it to be 80 degrees from the runners. ...

Tim:
Thanks for that detail. I had found the same angle on my BRE and thus far thought it was just an oversight by the boatyard. But it now seems to be done deliberately,  possibly to compensate for the weatherhelm induced by the USA rig.

: My BRE came with the standard USA rig. I took that off and put a BR Gunter rig on her, with the usual BR mast rake approx. equalling the mizzen mast rake. But then I had leehelm in light wind, with the board all down, and found that odd, because I did not ever have leehelm on the BR.

Because I also had too much friction in the c/board uphaul (caused by a mismatch between uphaul diameter and through-deck eye fitting), I opened the c/board case and found a stopper knot in there preventing the c/board from going down full vertical, instead keeping it at approx. 80 degrees from the runners. I fixed that, allowing the board to go down vertically, and that gave the boat back a light weatherhelm in light wind. Perfect. As you do, I manage the weatherhelm by adjusting the board, and then by reefing to the 1st. reef.

So for me the issue is becoming clearer: The BR was designed and balanced for the original Gunter rig sailplan. With that, the boat sailed OK. But the practicability of the Gunter rig was neglected and when it came to exporting to the U.S. the prospective US buyers (resp. the US importer) did not relish the unrefined Gunter. Up came the USA (Bermudan) rig, but which puts the point of sail effort a bit further aft, for which the hull was not designed originally, and so causing the boat to be become windwardly, which was first controlled by a standard c/board tilting to aft, but for which now that new hull and rudder angle modification is being introduced, which makes us old BayRaider owners from now on owners of "the OLD BayRaider".
 

[TimLM]

Aha that makes sense. By the same logic "the old BayRaider" has become the ancient BayRaider sailed by the ancient mariner

[Graham W]

Other than a bit of lightening of the tiller (but the cut and shut operation is too expensive for me) and perhaps slab reefing at the aft end of the mainsail (easy and cheap), I think that I may have run out of ways that I could improve Turaco.  Like Matthew’s Gladys, she’s gunter-rigged and a lady of a certain age.  With her twin masts and tan-coloured sails, she draws attention wherever she goes.  She’s been modified in numerous subtle ways, most of them inspired by postings on this forum.  Her more radical improvements (long plank bowsprit with a choice of foresails, mizzen staysail, electric propulsion, beautiful long wooden oars) are fittings rather than fixtures and could be used on any BR20.  Like her skipper, I think she’s becoming less interested in competitive raiding and will be cruising more in the future.  Also like her skipper, she dislikes being described as “old”.  In any case as she is definitely not for sale, any such designation is irrelevant.

Thanks for the discussion on centreboard angles.  I’ve never really tried anything other than up for downwind, down for upwind and down a bit for rowing/motoring, so there’s something new to try this season.

[Ray S]

An amusing thread to tide us over during lockdown with all sorts of speculations!

Classic Folkboats and Contessas have enjoyed sloping rudders for donkey's years and they don't have the luxury of centreplates to further adjust trim.  I have the original sloping rudder on my BRe and unlike some reports above I actually had lee helm in light weather making the boat slow to tack.  On my second Falmouth Raid a sailmaker pointed out that two of the BRe masts were sloping slightly forward compared to the others in the marina. Sure enough one of them was ours; the other was much worse!  On correcting the rake to just slightly aft of vertical the problem was fixed to just a nice small amount of weather helm for the boat to be responsive. That slight rake aft suits the boat and just looks right on the water - any slight forward rake looks odd once aware of the issue. Looking back at my notes: take a tape up to the top of the mast with the main halyard and cleat the halyard so that the tape measures 21' 2" (6450mm) to the gooseneck. Then take the cleated tape back to the top of the transom - my original - as supplied - measurement was 28' 1" (8560mm). I adjusted the mast back so that the distance became 27' 10" (8484mm) . Not a huge change needed but made all the difference. I'll check all these again!

The other big issue mentioned above is the angle of dangle of the centreplate which is controlled by the block system under the Sikoflexed-down (crazy idea!) timber top plate. First job with any BRe is to tease of the top-plate off and  check the settings are at least to the factory drawings - there is a critical 510mm block to block measurement on the BRe. I've just replaced the main rope into the head of the centreboard so as I don't know how close my c/b was originally to this critical measurement, I'll go back to 510mm and make adjustments if weather helm not correct in light weather. (We put top plate back on with a self-adhesive rubber seal strip to make further adjustments and routine maintenance easier.)

So really, whatever rudder type you have, there is sufficient range of adjustment in mast rake and centreplate to get the weather helm to your liking. I've been to four Falmouth Raids and have never noticed any difference in boat speeds between the two rudder types - any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!).

Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'

[Ray S]

Here is image of the BRe centreboard drawing with the critical 510mm measurement.

Warning - if CB allowed to go down too far down and past 90 degrees to a forward pointing position and then you hit something hard the CB pin can be pushed upward through its supporting timber battens! It has happened on a BRe 'as supplied'.  So all measurements should be checked - even on new boats!

Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'

[Graham W]

any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!)

Willing crew members slaving over long oars are hard to beat!

[Llafurio]

... So really, whatever rudder type you have, there is sufficient range of adjustment in mast rake and centreplate to get the weather helm to your liking. I've been to four Falmouth Raids and have never noticed any difference in boat speeds between the two rudder types - any differences I'm sure would be easily swamped by crew skill factor, boat trim, crew energy(!).
Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'

Exactly. So why did they introduce the new transom and rudder at all?
Again, bringing out the new Mk. 2 BR affects / diminishes the resale value of the original BRs.
C.

[Ray S]

Having got my BRe in Spring 2016 it was a bit of a surprise to see the modified rudder at the Southampton Boat Show later that year. (Might have been 2017).  On the stand they told me it was to produce a tighter turning circle especially under engine, but that in practice it made little difference. I checked today with my trusty Breton Plotter and confirmed that you can indeed push the tiller over an additional 9 degrees on a newer Bre as compared with the older boats.   So that is the reason for the change which really has little effect on anything, after all you can steer with the engine as well as the tiller for a tighter turn. The new rudder has potentially  more braking effect when tacking though!

Ray S
BRe Whimbrel 047

 

[Llafurio]

... I checked today with my trusty Breton Plotter and confirmed that you can indeed push the tiller over an additional 9 degrees as compared with the older boats. So that is the reason for the change which really has little effect on anything, after all you can steer with the engine as well as the tiller for a tighter turn. The new rudder has potentially  more braking effect when tacking though!
Ray S
BRe Whimbrel 047

Correct. The rudder is not what propels the boat, and a bigger rudder angle will have a bigger braking effect if used inexpertly.
So they are doing this since 2016 / 2017? -Well, I never ..
C.