Junk Rig for Raiding, anyone?

[Michael Rogers]

This being Swallowboats, I am about to commit heresy and expect to be excommunicated. I hope there isn't an Inquisition first ("keelhaul him for his sins")

Have any Raid -sailors (I'm not one, sadly - my boat is too small) considered junk rig for raiding?
Having, initially by chance but with increasing interest thereafter, done some book study on the subject, I suggest that they should at least have a look. Starting with an extra 10% sail area, as effective upwind as gaff-rig and more efficient off the wind, with easy gybing: and (this seems to me the big bonus) with instant hassle-free reefing on the water, almost by the gust apparently and right down to storm rig.

I recommend  Hasler and McCleod 'Practical Junk Rig', and van Loan 'The Chinese Sailing Rig'.

Michael Rogers

[Julian Swindell]

I read in James Wharram's book, Two Girls, Two Catamarans, that he tried junk rig initially, but found that it really is not satisfactory on a fast boat. I cannot remember the reasons, but he found that all the benefits of the rig are lost when you want to go significantly fast, which is why it is not used on catamarans. Raid boats might not go fast enough to experience the problems, but I think they do fairly tool along.

[Craic]

Michael,
there was a junk-rigged boat in Sail Caledonia 2006 or 7. It did not perform well. Pointing was a big problem.

[Matt Newland]

Michael,
im not an expert, but i think the main issue on our sort of boat is poor pointing ability in light winds. In stronger winds the battens will flex enough to generate a good aerofoil shape and it works better, but there is still all those strings needed to control the leech which also puts me off.
Feel free to prove  me wrong though, and there must be many hours of fun to be had trying it!
Matt

[Michael Rogers]

Thanks for interesting comments.

Julian, the essential requirement for junk rig is apparently an unstayed mast which cannot rotate. This is usually achieved by stepping the mast unrotatably on the keel, and supporting it at deck level, with adequate 'bury' between the two. Obviously on a catamaran this wouldn't be easy! I don't think speed has anything to do with it. I'm told that a good junk rig off the wind can be impressively quick.

Claus, the professional junk rig designers say that limitations going to windward are nearly always in the hull, not the rig (provided the latter is properly designed). They claim junk rig points at least as high as gaff, and as high as many bermudan boats.

Matt, your comments are fair enough. I have been fascinated to hear about modern research into batten design, to get a proper aerofoil shape. There does seem to be a lot of string involved although, because the main advantage claimed is ease of handling, this can presumably be made collectively to behave itself. It's also a fair point that junk rig out East has been used and developed for about 2000 years, mainly in a no-nonsense-earning-a-living context, so it must have some things going for it.

If I continue to scratch this new itch, I'll keep folks posted.

Michael

[Julian Swindell]

If you want to see how the Chinese do it, have a look at this web site. The Graceful Princess was built in Taiwan, sailed from there to the USA, then back to Taiwan only to be run down by a tanker one day from home! Just seemed unfair (Don't worry about the Chinese, just looke at teh pictures!)

http://www.chinesevoyage.com/html/front/bin/ptlist.phtml?Category=150249

[Tony]

Hi, Michael.

I'm convinced that,with modern materials and techniques - and with enough research - the sampan could make a really efficient and seaworthy small cruising boat.
Well, why not? They have been efficient and seaworthy trading vessels for thousands of years, or so it seems!
Sticking a fully battened lug sail - the so-called junk rig - on to a hull designed to  take a less adaptable sail might not work too well, though. Sampan hulls are highly evolved bits of kit. They may look like a bundle of fire wood topped by a sail made from old bamboo beach mats but they are working boats, made on the cheap, not super-yachts.

Take a look at this   (http://friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan.html) for details of rigging the mainsheet etc.
If a windsurfer sail designer took a look at this do you think the result would be a bomb proof cruising sail? 

Below are a couple of drawings of junk rigged Bayraiders I made just to annoy Matt!

Cheers!
Tony

[Terry Cross]

Tony
I like it! The aft cabin promises many very lazy days and nights of sailing. Tiller on the bedhead, outboard controls at the side of the bunk what more could you ask for?
PS. I am looking at the feasability of fitting an aft cabin to "Iona" our Storm 15
Terry Cross

[Tony]

Hi, Terry.

Im glad SOMEONE takes my ideas seriously........
Hmm...Aft cabin on a Storm 15....Why not make it a two decker. The hired hand can sleep with the engine in the orlop while you have a stern gallery off the Great Cabin. Guaranteed to lay head to wind, too!
Cheers!
Tony

PS Actually, you COULD use an electric outboard glued to the rudder and push-me-pull-you steering amidships.....I wonder that no one has done it before.....

[Michael Rogers]

Have fun, you scoffers! One of the facts I have discovered about junk rig is that it tends not to be taken seriously except by those (relatively few) people who take it seriously. Since I started this topic, I have been junk-rig sailing with people who know (and do) what they are talking about, and it is absolutely fascinating. One type of boat which responds particularly well to the application of up-to-date  junk rig practice is shallow draft/light displacement. This has gone beyond an itch and has become a project, now in quite an advanced stage of planning. I hope to have quite a lot to show for it next season, eg at the next Swallowboats Teifi Rally. I will say no more, but expect to have the last laugh.

PS I have NOT lost my sense of humour!

[Craic]

This junk rig, I think its a solution looking for a problem.
I fail to see any problem with the simple standard Gunter ketch rig of the Raiders. The Gunter ketch rig performs superbly, and reefs easily. Sailing and tacking up briskly under jib and mizzen alone is a priceless asset. A stayed main mast in a tabernacle on the foredeck allows for open sleeping room underneath the foredeck. The unstayed  main mast in a spear type socket of a junk rig would need to be longer, heavier in the material, and would be far less comfortable to step and unstep, and to transport while trailering.
Besides, standard unbattened sails are simpler, cheaper and easier to handle and store away than battened junk sails.
And who says that -on the upside- the junk rig would perform at least as good as the Gunter rig or even better?

[Julian Swindell]

I've never used junk rig so can't speak from any experience. I gather that its reall beauty is not its efficiency or speed, but its ease of use. Mile of string to set up, but once it is done, you can hoist the sail up above your head and leave it to get on with things on its own. Even if it rips it works.
I don't think it is true that it has to have an unstayed mast. It just allows you to have one if you want. Cetainly large junks oftne seemd to have shrouds much like squre riggers.
What I am intigued by is the idea of the rear cabin. It seems wrong when you say it, but when you look at it it seems to realy have quite a lot going for it. The main problems are steering and trying to devise a layout that looks natural. I think you really want quite a large cabin with a poop deck on top. Steer from there in the open and from inside in the cold. Just use the open cockpit as a place to get the crew wet...

[Craic]

Julian,
in the thread 'What Boat Next' in December 2007 Gerald Turner had come up with the idea of a stern main cabin. I was intrigued and campaigned fervently for it in private, to no avail.
One of these years an audacious designer will come up with a stern cabin, I think the market is now getting ready for it. It has so much going for it.

[Craic]

Further to the above mention of a stern cabin.:
I had originally even thought about a REMOVABLE stern cabin.

The scenario:
My own time requirements are 90% for an open boat, 10% for a boat with a cabin. To have a permanent cabin boat would make me resent it most of the time.
 
My only reason to have a cabin -temporarily- would be for coast-hopping one year between the Frisian Islands and down to Brittany.
 
Such weeks-long trips could not very well be done with sprayhood, cockpit tent and air mattress. Reason: Too little dry storage, too much fuss to rig up and down repeatedly.

So, a removable cabin it has to be. I think a temporary cabin is an innovative concept. I can not buy any boat which has that.
 
To have a temporary cabin on the foredeck of my existing SR is not possible, and I am doubtful one could be added to a standard BR. The existing foredecks are in the way.
 
The main opposing technical reason for a temporary forward cabin is and remains to be the main mast system including mast support, shrouds, and working the mast in general.
 
With the cabin having to be temporary, no major modification to the main mast system would be feasible resp. economic.
 
Then, a forward cabin would have to be sturdy enough to have people crossing over its roof for anchoring. That means a heavier  weight design which is in opposition to the cabin having to be removable easily and quickly.
   
Very different situation for a temporary stern cabin. The mizzen mast can be pulled out and re-stepped in a jiffy.
 
The stern area is wide enough for two berths right onto the transom edge. So, a temporary stern cabin can be more compact in size and lighter by design as there would not have to be sturdy rooftop support.
 
On SR, the rudder and tiller mechanism can remain to be unaltered when the boat is being sailed with the temporary cabin on.
 
And, to answer your and anybodys aesthetical concerns against a stern cabin on SR, one can always say:" Yes, but this is only a TEMPORARY hardtop, put on solely for the purpose of allowing me this long trip, otherwise this hardtop can be taken off again in two minutes and put into the garage, and then this is a beautiful classic open boat again."
 
THAT is the point: Ugly, yes, but only temporarily, while this journey lasts. (Drascombe Coasters are ugly for good.)
 
An open Dayboat with the option to have on it a long trip hardtop cabin from time to time, as required, where else is such a boat on the market? - I believe that is a great eyecatcher and USP.
 
I still think it is.

[Craic]

Further to the above, I just had this idea:

If you follow the idea so far for a removable hardtop as temporary stern cabin roof, why not also design this hardtop so ingeniously that when taken off it can double up and be used as TEMPORARY TENDER?