BayRaider Casualties at Morbihan Week

[Peter Cockerton]

Peter,
I disagree. I believe my open critique of some minor boat details rather lends more credence to my fervent applause and support for Swallowboats of which you can find plenty in other contributions on this website, in some magazine articles and -indirectly- in the subline of this post.

Claus

I'm not doubting your ardent support for Swallow Boats products but casting doubt on under engineered aspects of the boats using unfounded support to quote "I found that the steel wire in the luff of my standard BR jibs was the same diameter as the wires I had in conventional jibs of other boats where that wire had no function to hold the entire rig up" is not exactly scientific. The implications of this at the very least will be for Matt to review his load stress workings for all aspects of the forestay, jib reefing arrangements. To err on the side of caution now the issue has been raised he may well find the need to upgrade the luff wire, and of course every other shackle, pin, bracket, etc in the string.

prospective customers will then query whether their baot has this modification, existing customers will question whether their boat is safe if not modified. Like it or not Claus you are the most senior member of the forum and your views and comments are given high credence.

User feedback -especially founded critique- is the best source for product improvements. I have opened this thread hoping to collect a lot of such such user feedback, in order for the yard to quickly add a few improvements in order to make their boats even better than they already are. If you know a way how to achieve this through hushing things up, please let me know.

My suggestion for a controlled publication area was not to "hush things up" but to allow boat structural issues to be raised, reviewed by an engineer and responded to in a controlled manner. The controlled findings could then be released for all and sundry.

As pointed out, the BR jib clubboom is taking the entire strain to hold the rig and sailing capability up in the worst of conditions, and in case of a collision. Even in modest conditions this one bends and lets the mast rake back and sag the lee shroud. It should not bend or break too easily. Wouldn't cost much extra, and would give -me- greater peace of mind.

Another engineering issuse which possibly needs Swallow Boats to investigate, again prospective customers will then query whether their baot has this modification, existing customers will question whether their boat is safe if not modified. Like it or not Claus you are the most senior member of the forum and your views and comments are given high credence.

I found that the steel wire in the luff of my standard BR jibs was the same diameter as the wires I had in conventional jibs of other boats where that wire had no function to hold the entire rig up. It is difficult and expensive to change that wire later. I recommend it is made 1-2 mm thicker on the BRs as standard especially as the extra cost for that should be minimal.

Please see above comments
Again, any other suggestions how to make the BRs -even- more sturdy than they already are, better bring them together here rather sooner than later.

Hopefully without "headless chickens" being set loose.

[Edwin Davies 2]

I agree with Peter, in that if I were in two minds about which boat to invest in some posts on this thread would make me think twice (wrongly) about any Swallow boat. Any design can be made stronger, even bullet proof but only at a cost in weight, complexity, looks and perhaps, most importantly, when looking for a new boat, cost. When we buy a boat, new or second hand, we all add to it or modify it but that is to personalise it to our own needs, again at added cost. This opinion is my own, and I have still to get my boat on the water! It will be soon.

[Craic]

I have a list of things I usually do, if anyone should be interested.

Claus,
I am interested, not least because I am sailing in the Ionian this summer and afternoon winds can blow up out of nowhere. Prevention is better than cure, within reason, and my Greek is non-existent.

Why not publish your list and then we can all make our own decisions about whether or not we want to follow it?
Graham

Here goes:


The perfect BayRaider, June 2011
The plastic BayRaider 20 as it comes out of the box is IMHO currently the best volume production coastal daysailer by a fair margin. It is sailing rings around the Drascombes, and it is safer in all key issues, more stable, self draining and recoverable by singlehander.
Only, it is not perfect  as it comes out of the box – not yet. Pity, because it would not take very much tomake it so. Here a list of what must and should be done, plus what would be good to have in order to make the BR as fool- and bulletproof as economically possible, as well as easy to use and make perform.

Musts
Walking or standing areas on decks must be non-slip. Tabernacle bolt holes oblong enough to give full mast raking play. Keel strips surrounding centreboard swivelling pin bolted through. A boat manual which clearly shows and explains critical rigging detail requirements and safe specifications and practices, including a warning and table about how different knots affect tensile strengths of ropes.   

Shoulds
All structural parts as well as all locally irreplaceable spars simply must never break, never ever. I quite like the idea to have simple disposable parts to give in some quite controlled way before anything fatal can happen to structural and locally irreplaceable parts. Stronger jib clubboom. Stronger forestay.  Jibboom clamcleat must be bolted fast, not screwed fast. Make spinnaker boom unbreakable, or discard it. Swivel instead of shackle between stemhead and jibboom. Rubber cushion under jibboom heel. Improve ballast tank emptying system.  Permanent airvent for ballast tank. Seal stowage compartments against filling with water during extreme heel and or bad rain. Eliminate rudderblade play. Strengthen lower rudder hinge bolt. Harden leading edges of rudder and centreboard with a metal inlay against underwater collisions. Make sure masthead plug cannot split carbon fibre mast under pressure, and gooseneck pin (or other fitting) cannot split boom. Make sure wooden plugs stay in.


Good to haves
1-2 bailing pumps for getting the ballast water out. Deflector plate under hull to prevent centreboard case from scooping and fountaining.  Mainsail luff downhaul with purchase pulley. Mainsail with luff pocket for gunter yard. Tiller brake and telescopic tiller extension. Elevated main mast support to allow steering while mast lies laid. Catches to make stowage tops  closeable and lockable. Spare O-ring seals for round hatches.

These are recommendations from practice, and with some engineering background. I  suspect the users of the boat spend more time sailing and experiencing the boat in all sorts of weather than the designer himself does.
The above recommended Musts and Shoulds –if accepted- should be implemented without further delay in order to avoid the boomerang effect getting ever bigger from boats sold before.

There will be questions, especially with regards to the priorisation between Musts and Shoulds. Happy to answer.

Claus Riepe

[Michael Rogers]

Hallo Everyone

I agree with those who have said or implied that this is, or at least has become, a thread too far, and I would like to propose that we wrap it up. Anyone second that?

Nothing this side of heaven, Claus, is perfect, and that goes for boats too. Both in terms of design and production, boats are compromises, and I think we all agree (otherwise we wouldn't be writing/reading any of this!) that Swallowboats have made a pretty good job of getting that balance right. One of the many pleasures of boat ownership is modifying and improving. We all do it, some more than others, and what fun it is.

I'm not a BR sailor, and am in no position to evaluate and comment on Claus's list. I'm bound to say that, were I able to do so, I would certainly not take an "All structural parts as well as all locally irreplaceable spars simply must never break, never ever", "F8", "years of use and abuse" view. (You are being neither misquoted nor quoted out of context, Claus.) As a personal view, that sounds extreme to me, and beyond the range of sensible seamanship unless one had Cape Horn in mind.

Surely, if one genuinely thinks that aspects of a design could be easily improved at the production stage, the sensible and fair approach is to enter into personal dialogue with the builder (and who could be more approachable than Matt?), so that future purchasers benefit from the outcome and unnecessary reputation damage is avoided by threads such as this one on an open forum. And please, Claus, do NOT, on this forum, tell us that you have done so with no satisfaction: in that unlikely event, keep it to yourself!

So lets call it a day, folks. It's not that I want to have the last word. I just think this 'conversation' has become unfair to Swallowboats.

(SP Cadenza, and T12 in build)

[Peter Cockerton]

Micheal

You have my vote and total support for your comments and views.

Peter

[Guy Rossey]

Reading this thread only today, my BR was among the ones which had her spinnaker boom broken at Morbihan. I want to factually describe here what happened for understanding. Sailing downwind at F5, gusts F7 ( we were told afterwards ), we wanted to avoid strong tidal waves and went upwind (i.e. crosswind), the boom had a shape of a banana ! But this lasted for ten minutes.

Analysis:

The boom broke right at the hull. I believe that the main factor of the incident is that I did not secure the boom by a separate line to the hull ( the line is going through a pulley to the spinnaker and the boom is held by itself). I feel this simple modification would have contributed a lot to the strength of the spinnaker boom. Also I should not have kept the spinnaker at this force of crosswind.

Guy 
BR Catchando Bay

[Edwin Davies 2]

Thanks for that Guy, Now let us wrap this up. Thank you Michael for the proposal.

Ed

S17
Susan 2

[Matt Newland]

Sorry! Perhaps I should agree with you all and wrap this up, but have only just read the comments since my last post and feel compelled to reply.

Claus, the Jib boom broke in Morbihan, because the mast head caught in the top sides of a French Warship while the boat carried on underneath.
In that situation something would have to break, and better that than the mast, sail or hull. I think I charged him £40 for a new boom. The furling line actually held the mast up long enough for the crew to get forward and lower the mast with some control, ie it did not come crashing down instantly.

It is pretty difficult building essentially luxury items at the present time and its not hugely helpful to be giving the impression that our structure isnt up to it! That said, I guess the open nature of this forum lends it some credibility and we will look at making some of the changes you suggest.

If customers, existing and potential, need any help with any of the points raised in this thread, I would of course be happy to help.
Best wishes,
Matt

[Llafurio]

On the occasion of recently revisiting this thread from 2011, I take notice that most of the recommendations from then have been taken over by the yard since. I mean this as a compliment for the yard, not as a "told you so!" comment.

And I must apologise also, as I notice I have made a false recommendation then.: In the opening post of this thread I had recommended to improve the too weak original wooden jib clubboom by replacing it with double-wall carbon windsurfer mast material.
-I must retract that. I had built me such a boom, and thought it was bullet-proof, but then broke it in a coastal regatta. So, windsurfer masts, even if reinforced, are not always a better option for jibboom material.

I went back to a stronger wooden jibboom, cut off from the original bigger section wooden mainsail boom, which I had -successfully ever since- replaced by a carbon boom.

SwY today uses a different design and stronger jib clubboom then they did in the early days of the BRs. If you look up and compare BR photos from through the years you can see the difference. However, if you also look in these photos at the bend of some of the recent US-rig mainsail booms, you can see there is further need for improvement there.

Claus

[Sea Simon]

I'd be very interested to hear more about your carbon mainsail boom  please Llafurio

"However, if you also look in these photos at the bend of some of the recent US-rig mainsail booms, you can see there is further need for improvement there."
Yes!

[Graham W]

[Post moved to a new thread on carbon fibre]

[Llafurio]

I'd be very interested to hear more about your carbon mainsail boom  please Llafurio.

Hi Simon,
building yourself a carbon mainsail boom is the single best mod to take the sting out of heavy weather gybing. Makes the boat safer.
It's very simple, not expensive and I can give instructions, but I prefer not to do a separate carbon spar clinic inside this particular thread. Do open a dedicated thread and I can contribute there.
C.

[MarkDarley]

I agree with comments regarding the extreme bend in the carbon boom.  It is not helpful even if it doesn’t break.  The more it bends the fuller the sail gets which is precisely the opposite of what you need in heavier weather. 
I very quickly replaced it with the yard wooden boom which is a huge improvement.  I should however add that I cannot be sure that the kit built wooden “Pippin” had a yard spec carbon boom in the first place.

The other immediate improvement I made was to have a custom gooseneck made so that it was on the face of my wooden mast rather than on a corner.  A heavy jibe with the corner mounted gooseneck split the mast, but I have since had it repaired and feel safe with the new gooseneck.

Last year a close inspection showed “Pippin’s “ jib boom about to fail due to concealed rot under white paint where the anchoring ring for the jib (and of course the forestay) is bolted through the boom.  I have had a slightly heavier boom built to replace it.

My carbon mizzen mast failed in 2020 as it had not been stiffened at the deck.  The new windsurf section of mast has been strengthened with a wooden core at deck.  Again this spar may have been home built.
I hope that at this point I have found the weak spots in the rig and fixed them!

I am now taking a very close look at “Kelpie”, the 2012 GRP Bayraider 20 I have shipped to California where I spend my winters (and have lived for 33 years).

I am replacing the jib boom with a slightly larger dimension oak boom and doing the same for the mizzen boom while at it.

Having read these posts I think I will explore whether I can sleeve some Dynema up the luff to back up the old wire luff.  I am also taking a critical look at the 10 year old stainless rigging with a view to replacing it with Dynema.  10 years is generally considered the life of stainless rigging but in Kelpie’s case she has lived a fairly gentle life on the Beaulieu River and Solent.

Her spars (carbon mast) look good, but I have yet to have her out in wind against tide in 25 knots on Tomales, or SF Bay which will find the weak spots if there are any!

I found the rudder had a good deal of slop and have beefed up the pintle mounts.

Kelpie was supplied with the shaft/hole for a spinnaker but never fitted with one.  I have used an old pretty stout section of windsurf mast, sleeved where I joined it and where fittings are attached.  With a Dynema line from the end of the boom to the launching eye, it looks well up to the task.  I suspect the Weta asymmetric chute I am using will blow out before the boom!

I am finding that, with the water ballast in this heavier GRP hull, a lot of sloppy water comes up the centerboard case, especially when she is ballasted, so another improvement will be a centerboard gasket.

As you read this, once again I should stress that all the breakage and near breakage I have experienced on “Pippin” may be the result of the fact that she was not a yard built boat.  I am only beginning to put the 2012 GRP “Kelpie” through similar conditions.  The hull, rigging and all but the jib boom feels solid. Time will tell.

Mark

[Llafurio]

...
Her spars (carbon mast) look good, but I have yet to have her out in wind against tide in 25 knots on Tomales, or SF Bay which will find the weak spots if there are any! ...

Mark,
with your boat a 2012 build you may want to check what the mainmast top plug looks like, whether it is the original design, or an improved version which Matt had promised in 2011.

The original design is bound to fail under load, as in Morbihan 2011 and in Ireland in 2021. There will be more cases too. https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17&URL=https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php?topic=2643 .

Splitting your carbon mast at sea in rough conditions is no laughing matter, back on land repairing it is practically impossible, and replacing it on land is very difficult and costly, especially when you are in the US.