BayRaider Casualties at Morbihan Week

[Craic]

Just back from Morbihan. Rather a lot sun, wind, wine and oysters. And some technical casualties in the BR fleet, mostly broken spinnaker booms, but also 1 broken carbon fibre mast top, and 2 -I think- broken jib clubbooms. Let's discuss here what needs to be done to make BRs heavy-weather-proof.
: I remain to be sceptical of the long spinnaker boom. On our boats we fly the asymmetric from a 10" longer jib clubboom, with good success. To make the clubboom more rigid and safe it is made from two layers of carbon fibre windsurfer masts (the top half inserted and sikaflexed into the lower half). In this version, to control the forward pulling forces, the stainless steel stemhead fitting plate must be bolted through to the stemhead post.

[Graham W]

You must have had quite some wind to inflict that much damage.  Any casualties among other fleets or was it just BR's?

[Craic]

You must have had quite some wind to inflict that much damage.  Any casualties among other fleets or was it just BR's?

Graham,
no, the wind was a handful at times but still OK. 
IMHO no sailing boat should ever sustain material damage from wind or even gale, and the BRs should do even better than average.

[Graham W]

In this version, to control the forward pulling forces, the stainless steel stemhead fitting plate must be bolted through to the stemhead post.

Claus,
How do you secure the stemhead bolt from the inside? On my BR, the bow is too far away from the nearest inspection hatch to reach.

[Craic]

Claus,
How do you secure the stemhead bolt from the inside? On my BR, the bow is too far away from the nearest inspection hatch to reach.

Graham,
for current plastic BRs where the stemhead fitting eye is integral part of the stainless steel keelband, I trust no through bolting is required, and I have not done one. Different for the wooden boats where the stemhead fitting is a separate plate.

For throughbolting in inaccessible cavities there are metal plugs that fold out into an anchor form inside the cavity once the bolt is tightened.

[Graham W]

For throughbolting in inaccessible cavities there are metal plugs that fold out into an anchor form inside the cavity once the bolt is tightened.

That has interesting possibilities for all sorts of GRP uses - I will look them up.

[Matt Newland]

Claus and Friends,
Just got back from Beale park boat show and could not resist replying to this thread...

Regarding the spinnaker bowsprits, this is the first time we have had any break on us, but looking at how they bend in strong winds, I guess it was only a matter of time. The spinnaker was originally devised and sold as a light wind sail, but this is no excuse - they should not have broken. We have actually changed the design some time ago to create a stiffer bowsprit, but now I think it may be worth cutting them down a little, length wise, so there is less to break off, and less in the way, in the cockpit, when the bowsprit is retracted.

The mast head issue we have resolved with a different construction technique which we started implementing about 6 months ago. However, I am just guessing at what the problem is in this case because no customers have come forward with any of these issues (including the bowsprit breakages). I have checked with our French dealer Philippe Morvan and he has heard nothing either. If you are reading this, please get in touch... we are here to help.

The only customer who has got in touch was the most serious - the jib boom breakage. Without going into too much detail, to spare blushes, he sailed into a fairly fixed object and the mast was ripped down. I have made him another.
Best wishes,
Matt

[Julian Swindell]

Matt
How did Sunday go at Beale Park Show? I was testing the strength of a BayCruiser in gale force winds and rain on Poole Harbour then. I can report that the boat was fine, but the skipper scared witless. Rather cocerned to read that Swallowboats can break if sailed straight into solid objects. I tend to use that technique to manoeuvre round other moored boats...

You can't retire while the rest of us need boats.

[Matthew P]

I'd just like to say I sailed my grp BR on Saturday on the Solent in F5-ish in choppy water with a heavy crew for 5 hours and simiar conditions on other occaisions of F5+ including at Grafham in winds gusting 30 knots+ with no damage at all.  As long as sailing into heavy fixed objects are avoided I am confident of the strength of the boat.  If it hits something immovable with irrestitable force (not something I plan to make a habit) then I want the bit that breaks to be a "mechanical fuse" ie relatively fail-safe and inexpensive to replace.  I am cautious of re-enforcing things without considering what would break instead, and the consequences of even greater and potentially dangerous damage.

Matthew

[Craic]

Matthew, and Matt,
no reason for complacency if nothing happens to go pop during five hours in F5+ conditions.: We must have reason to trust nothing does in F8+ after years of use and abuse. Too ambitious? -Not for me.
Let's put all the remaining issues openly on the table now and sort them out
for good and for conditions a lot worse than what we had at Morbihan.

[Jeremy]

Matthew, and Matt,
no reason for complacency if nothing happens to go pop during five hours in F5+ conditions.: We must have reason to trust nothing does in F8+ after years of use and abuse. Too ambitious? -Not for me.
Let's put all the remaining issues openly on the table now and sort them out
for good and for conditions a lot worse than what we had at Morbihan.

Claus, let's not forget that the BR is designed and certified to RCD category C.  To quote from the brochure "The BayRaider is designed in accordance with the Recreational Craft Directive and
carries CE certification for category C (wind speeds up to force 6, significant wave
height 2m)."

Is it reasonable, therefore, to demand that it withstand years of use in winds up to F8?

I believe that legally, at least in some EU countries (France being one I'm reasonably sure about) the skipper could be breaking the law by regularly taking a boat out in conditions outside it's certification limits.  Even here in the UK, where we are (thankfully) relatively free from such restrictions, I think that it would be unwise to regularly push a boat beyond its design and certification limits, not just from a safety perspective but also because of the impact it may have on insurance validity.

Sure things need to be strong enough to take getting caught out by the weather from time to time, but that doesn't mean that nothing should ever break when regularly used in conditions that impose maybe 2.5 times the maximum certified loads (F8 vs F6, for example).

[Graham W]

to spare blushes, he sailed into a fairly fixed object and the mast was ripped down.

I think he forgot that the French Navy is now on our side. And in front of him...

[Andrew Denman]

Being another BR20 builder, I find this thread pretty interesting. 

I have sailed on the BR in light to quite strong conditions as most of you have.  I have raced on the boat and have some observations from there as well.  The Spinnaker setup is really, as Matt has said, a light wind sail.  I have had it up in 15-18kts whilst racing ( unballasted) and we had to run off pretty square to deal with the heeling forces and the angle of the prodder was pretty interesting.  It didn't break but if it did it would have been because we had it up in conditions that it wasn't designed for. 

Generally speaking a 3/4oz kite will take most conditions you are game to put it up in but the weak point is the spinnaker pole here.  If people want to sail with the kite in wind speeds that are constantly 10kts plus I would use a different setup that would deal with the loads.

The BR has a design problem in that it is so stable with the ballast in she will carry full sail in 20-25kts so reefing rarely occurs up to these conditions.  Due to the nature of the gunter rig, the mainsail shape is not pretty at these speeds as the yard de-powers to leeward.  I would suggest that prudent seamanship would see a reef in the main at these wind speeds so the boat is less stressed and the sail shape is better.  Most other open boats would be reefing in the 10-12kts true range. 

With a double reefed main, jib and mizzen, the boat is very comfortable in the higher wind ranges and the overall loading on the gear reduces. 

As it has been pointed out, the boat is only certified for Force 6 ( 21-26kts)which the boat handles with ease. As with any forecast, this is only the mean speed and wind gusts may be 40% higher.  I would suggest that the boat generally handles these conditions well but I will say again that prudent seamanship is paramount when sailing an open boat of this type at the upper end of the wind range it was designed for.

Just my two bobs worth....

Andrew

[Julian Swindell]

I would agree with these latter comments. Bayraiders (and Baycruisers)are designed and built well to suit certain worse conditions, i.e. F6 inshore. They will survive much worse in reality, but things break on all boats on occasion, however strong or well maintained. As one poster commented, you need weak links. It is preferable, in my case for instance, to have the mast go overboard rather than having the chain plates or cabin roof ripped off. (None of this has happened, I hasten to add!)
Regarding reefing, in my experience on the Baycruiser, the "reef early reef often" mantra still applies 100%. I can sail her single handed full sail in F5 without any danger, but she is a pig to handle. Put in one reef, or even two (and I can do it in under a minute now) and she is a delight. Not only easier to sail, but usually faster too as she is leveler and not prone to surging up wind. As a matter of routine, if there are any gusts which heel me beyond my comfort zone (indicated by my coffee mug sliding on the side deck) I put in a reef. Life then becomes much easier. I probably sail with one reef in more often than with the full sail. But then I sail for pleasure, not for an adrenaline rush.

[Craic]

I am somewhat taken aback by comments that appear to be apologetic with regards to breakages that have occurred to different BRs during the fair conditions we had at Morbihan this year.
Anyway, if that's the majority opinion, fine with me. I build most of my rigs myself and I use my own discretion to give it a bit of an extra safety margin over the standard here and there. No breakages yet, ever.

What I am not happy with is the strength of the standard jib-clubboom, and of the standard steel wire inside the jib luff. I would recommend that these parts are generally reinforced in future, as minimum. Plus all critical hollow profile endplugs be secured by through-bolts. Plus the jib foot clamcleat secured by at least one trhough-bolt. I have a list of things I usually do, if anyone should be interested.