What Boat Next?

[gerald turner]

I certainly would not consider aswallow boat owneras 'Conservative' , the designs seem to be inotive , certainleywhy not have a Pop top cabin, but would it not be more simple to arrange a well fitting cockpit tent?

Gerald Turner

[Bill Wickett]

I would agree with Gerald (above) about a well fitted cockpit tent. This has been discussed on this forum previously. I think that the dodger that was on the BR at Morbihan in May, is a great starting point for a tent to attach to. The dodger seemed pretty useful on its own for basic shelter underway.

In regards to a new boat based on the Bay Raider, with a cabin and a lifting top or pop top, I think the cabin could only provide laying down and stooping accomodation.

Putting a cabin top with useful sitting room on the boat may look pretty strange. So a lower cabin top would need to have a lifting top to provide this. Maybe also extending the cabin sides to the gunwales. Having been aboard a BR last May, and looking over my pictures from the event, I am not sure if the hull has enough volume to make a cabin useful.

I think the Cardigan Bay Lugger with cabin has a more pronounced shear on it, so the coachroof does not appear to be as high as it might be on the BR. I stand to be corrected if necessary on this. Just my opinion.

I am sure Matt has sketches on the the various layouts possible. Will look forward to them.

Other considerations are that the mast tabernacle may have to be on the cabin top, and that the foot of the sail will have to raised, with possible loss in sail area. Just lengthening the mast to suit, may not help, as this will create more heeling. The boat weight and stability will already be impacted by the addition of the cabin. So then you look at more ballast and the boat gets heavier, needing more power, creating more heeling, and on and on. 

There are a number of so called pocket cruisers here in North America that use lifting cabin tops for extra standing room. Cataline 22 & 25. Sirius 21. Ensenada. MacGregor, Rhodes. The tops generally lift up vertically on tubular legs, so are horizontal rather than pivoting on an angle at the forward edge. Most have drop sides in canvas with screens. As mentioned in the owner's write up on the Cardigan Bay Lugger, "they all seemed to be intended for export. You could tell. They were mostly the same shape as a shipping container" Most of these boats have higher topsides than the BR to be able fit in the accommodations. A lot of people want the RV on the water. Is that where this design discussion is going? I don't think that is what we are trying to get to.

So I guess I am back to the open boat, with dodger and a tent. My present boat has those, and also a small bimini for sun shelter at the helm. How do I fit a bimini on the BR? They are very useful here in the summer when sailing for 6 or 7 hours in strong sun, and 25-30 degrees C heat. Would do well in the southern U.S. too.

[Craic]

Gerald, Bill,
nothing wrong with rigging a tent neatly over the BayRaider, only that does not answer the question of this thread 'What Boat Next?'. Because, the BR is already there.

Another point: Open boats are for one clientele, cabin boats are for another. To have both open boats and cabin boats on offer increases the product range spread and thus increases the markets reach.

Also, hard roof cabin boats are better for sailing through the night, and they give better protection in severe weather and protect better from breakers. Cabin boats are somewhat better suited for long distance journeys across open seas.

[Bill Wickett]

Thanks for bringing us back on course Claus. Good points.

[Bill Wickett]

I have thought more about some points for discussion and design consideration.

I am just asking the questions below to help focus on specifics/likes/dislikes and stimulate more discussion. Maybe Matt already has his design all done. , although I expect the new shops are taking up much of his time.

Hope you can indicate your likes/dislikes and maybe suggest other points to consider.

Assuming a 22' +/- OAL as has been put forward earlier in this discussion

Beam: The BR is 6'7". Could this be increased at all 6'10" or more for more cabin space? Do you like to be able to row? The wider beam may make this more difficult, or require longer oars.

Cockpit length vs cabin length: Do you like to be be able to stretch out on the cockpits seats, or provide extra accommodation if necessary? This may require the increase beam as mentioned above, for wider cockpit seats. What length of cockpit seats? 6'6"? (I am 6'3")

Cockpit motor well vs transom mounted OB: The former has worked very well on the Swallow designs that have it now. If cockpit size with a cabin is a concern, would the motor have to be moved aft?

Rig: Ketch with a self tending jib as BR, or lug rig as Cardigan Bay, or something else? Free standing spars with no standing rigging? Free standing main with roller furler? Is a 2 piece carbon main spar possible for transport and still have a sail track? Cat Ketch with sprit booms?
Main sheet positioning? Any traveller?

Centerboard/Keel/Ballast: Single centerboard, twin keels, small ballasted keel with centerboard, weighted centerboard, water ballast as BR/SR. Combination of?

Cabin coach roof: Full beam width for more interior volume or narrower with side decks? Some full beam cabins cause a very large step up to get to the "deck". Handholds going forward are not as available.

Foredeck: In a longer boat of 22' is there room for hawsepipe leading to a locker or other space for anchor rode forward? Can an anchor be readily positioned over the stem, or just set in chocks on the deck? The longer the boat, the more difficulty with taking an anchor and rode from a cockpit locker forward, over/around the cabin. Or are you able to lower the anchor from the cockpit and lead the rode forward to the bow?

Cabin interior: Accommodation for how many? 2,3,4? Seating or just sleeping? Provision for head, portable? Cooking space, or out in the cockpit under a dodger?

Maximum towing weight: What does the weight need to be kept to for the most people to be able to trailer without a large vehicle?

[Craic]

Bill,
thanks for putting together a lot of details. All relevant, but they must be put into perspective in order of necessities and priorities.

There is one ruling point missing from your list, and that is the target price of the future boat. No good thinking out details that would push the boat beyond general affordability.

I think your last point, weight, should get top priority. Meaning lowest possible weight, under 500 kgs max. on the trailer. Few people today realise that the low weight issue alone will decide about trailerability in future. CO2 reduction legislation will push car sizes and engines down dramatically in the very near future, so in order to remain a true trailer sailer for many years to come, the new boat must not put on any much weight through large size or built-in hull ballast. Weight on Demand i.e. waterballast is the ideal -and probably only- solution fit for the future.

In that sense, lowest possible weight and lowest possible cost and price, I would favour a 20 ft. boat over a 22 ft. What really matters is not the LOA, but the waterline length, and there the standard 20ft. BayRaider is already longer than the 22ft. Drascombe Coaster, the Cape Cutter or the Cornish Shrimper.

With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year!

[Charles de Bouillane]

Hi all,
just some ideas, for one people or a couple or two close friends living/camping one week aboard a little cabin-sail-boat.
I thank Matt for all the nice design-work already done.

Bill, I ld follow your last message plan.
- As you say Claus, total weight of boat+trailer is important: for me it s around 500kg;
- water-ballast, but with foot-well in cabin entrance; - prefering small length (minimizing price and hassle, so to use more the boat!): around 16 feet (French canals: free cabin-boating: up to 5m), may be 17feet, with transom (not to immerse wheel-bearings when launching/retreiving), with higher bow/more pronounced sheer (and a more rounded/volume hull?) sheer giving lower cabin-aspect, Bill as you told; beam:1.9m;
- rowing: only fewtimes;
- cockpit length: about 6 feet (wider benches/settee so one could lay-down); not a too wide cockpit-opened space whether swamped; engine preferably in a well;
- ketch rig, standing rigging/tabernacle with possibility to get the mast quickly lowered (bridges); - twin pivoting bilge boards;
- low cabin, mainly for laying-down and keeping gears dry/secure (lockable to store items when at restaurant), with : small side-decks, hatch in front-deck (for anchor line), 2 berths (mostly 70/75cm from bunk to roof)+ 2 sitting (85cm from sit to roof: if there is enough place under/behind these for the twin boards) for people about up to 1.75m (sitting low, for eating/reading before falling aslept, when raining or cold/damp evenings, since sitting low such as inside a sport-car can be comfy with stretching some ones legs?), taller people: under the canopy.
- for the toilet: perhaps small system of www.car-a-fun.de/pl6169... with plastic bag (liquids still could go through the bucket?): Lid-bag Toilet Cactus (but without its special folding seat; could be much lower, under the port-side sitting place.
Berths: 1.9m length including these two (lower) sittings that would have some thicker cushions or small store-box upon them.
If the side-twin-boards don t leave enough place for the sittings, one sitting place is at the middle of the cabin (facing stern)and the toilet sliding stored/centered under the bridge-deck, and in the cockpit at night.
Or under this middle of the cabin could be used the kitchen-box (stove stored in cockpit locker, that can go outside upon bridge-deck under canopy): one ply-sheet+two holes: burner-stove and bowl-sink + flexible water-tank under.

It s only my two cents...
still looking for the small cabin sailing...
 I understand compromis/choices have to be made between  ideas!

[gerald turner]

The problem of a fixed cabin boat for sub 20' LOA, is that what ever you design ,will be a compromise, my current boat is a Hunter 19', it is fine for occasional weekending, but cabin space is limited,the upside is it has a large cockpit which makes live-a-board use more livable with a cockpit tent fitted,
the Europa that suceeded the 19' utilised the space more effectively, but to get to the foredeck you have to clamber over the coachroof.
There are on the market other similar concepts ,such as the Shrimper and Red fox,nee Hunter 20 (both Selecta yachts), Perhaps a design with a main cabin to the rear of the boat with a lower foredeck which would be able to take a double berth under, and a central cockpit would be radical enough to  make sales, I am thinking along the lines of the Atlantic rowboats with cabins both ends .

Gerald Turner

[Craic]

Gerald:
A main cabin at the rear end of the boat - a fascinating idea.:

The transom stern section lends itself much better to a double berth positioning than the narrow bow.

Then, there would be no conflict with the positioning of the heavy main mast or with working the anchor at the bow.

A rear cabin would not obstruct the helmsman's most important field of view to forward.

The rudder could be operated through a rudder yoke, works fine on the SeaRaider.

A central cockpit would be better protected from breaking following seas.

And even if there was an outboarder well inside the cabin, that could be put to double use too, using your own imagination and discretion.

I think a rear cabin is a truly brilliant novel concept. Good thinking!
 
Claus

[gerald turner]

Well Claus ,I have to say that the rear cabin is not my Original Idea, WhenI was sailing at the Moribhan rally 2007, a boat came by of about 22' 25' size with a cabin mounted where the cockpit is normally, with a cat Ketch rig and a tiller which extended over the cabin top to the rudder, the rest of the boat seemed to be left open from the cabin forwards.

I would suggest that it was a home build,as it was a multi chined hull, but it did seem to work !

[Charles de Bouillane]

my next dream sailboat? she could be 17 feet with low cabin, not slow, a nice well thought sailing-camping-machine, with small cockpit footwell, water ballast...   
Among some interesting designs with low cabin, I see: Chebacco (but with more raked transom), Stir Ven, Winkle Brig...

[John Dean]

15 -16 ft version for me. A one man raid boat which has versatile uses due to the water ballast. Should be possible to have good performance unballasted and good safety margins with ballast.

1) Spec for singlehanded sailing, with room for friend/grand-child/nervous wife. Because it can be sailed single-handedly it will be safe with non-experienced crew on-board.

2) Fits garage to build and store

2) In epoxy ply will be light enough to move alone.

3) I will obtain a dinghy space at my sailing club in about two years time and maximum size is 16', so timing perfect for me. Do not want to leave a boat on a mooring - too much hassle.

4) There seem to be many people who sail who have partners who are not keen. The Bayraider is for families who all sail together, this boat is for all the others.

5) 15/16 ft can be supplied as a kit as per Storm 17 and at an affordable price.

Brian pretty much sums it up for me as light weight and smaller version is what coastal dinghy cruising is all about. Much as I find the BR very impressive its a bit big for the solo sailor. I have considered the Storm 15 and 17 but not sure about the double enders. A 15 or 16 footer with water ballast would be the rizzle shnizzel and skip the 17-18 version. Kit form so I can afford it!

I would add:
a) to be rowable and and to have outboard bracket or well.

b) To be mounted on a breakback trailer

c) rig options eg forward mounted mast with mainsail only or further aft with mainsail and jib to give passengers something to do.

[Craic]

my next dream sailboat? she could be 17 feet...

Charles,
not that I myself would see much sense in a cabin boat of 17 ft, because everything must be very very cramped then and the seagoing qualities cannot be too good.
But I think it would be a good idea to start a design process with a  17 ft. hull in mind. Because, if one would succeed in fitting agreeable accommodation and space on a 17 ft. boat, then after transferring the clever solutions found from that finally to a 20ft. hull this would surely result in a very neatly thought through layout and very spacious solution then.
BTW, in the current PBO there is an article about a guy with a 15ft. self-built cabin sailer who has circumnavigated most of England, Wales and Scotland with that, imagine.
(However, one has to bear in mind that home-built boats do not have to be RCD compliant with regards to safety and testing, so very compact solutions are possible that would be illegal in a proper yard-built boat like the Swallowboats.)   
Claus

[Charles de Bouillane]

Claus and each,

just a 18 feet design of a cabin boat:
http://benho2.tripod.com/Ataraxia/ataraxia_review.htm

From this, for you, what would you change?

Perhaps, for me: a some more vertical stem, more freeboard (giving less high cabin), buoyancy and floatation, waterballast and twin pivoting side boards.

Charles

[Craic]

Charles,
since you asked,
these are all very nice little boats you mention, but they are quite conventional. They are on the market for many years already,
but if they have not exactly taken over the market so far, there must be a reason. Too small? Overweight? Poor performance? No RCD? Too expensive? If you like them, fine. But apparently they do not lure you yourself enough so you would have bought any of them.

What I expect from a new Swallowboats cabin sailer would be a thoroughly novel concept with better safety, better space usage, and better performance than what is on the market thus far. The new BayRaider with its waterballast system is a wonderful substrate for a new cabin boat. Swallowboats should not come out with a boat that does not add noticeable better 'value' to boat users than the old boats do.