Keeping a BRe head to wind to raise the main

[Royboy]

Hello everyone

I have  a BRe (no.19) and since I took delivery I, like many others, have experienced a little difficulty raising the mainsail the last 6 inches or so.

I have read with interest all the experiences and advice other members have expressed.

Well yes I agree with much that has been said - silicon spray, making sure the main sheet and kicker are loose etc.

I have long considered holding the boat plumb into wind is one of the key strategies that must be adhered to.

I have also read ,and agree, that when single handed it is a challenge to keep the BRe truly into wind.  Indeed I think it was Jonathan himself who said that he has found that his boat drifts off from heading into the wind.

Well today I decided that it would be an experimental day - and I would try all and every way of overcoming this.

So with a 6 or 7 knot wind I set off single handed under motor with the mizzen set amid ships (tightly sheeted) - yes with the helm tied also amid ships she holds a more or less course into the wind, but with the engine in neutral she keeps drifting off - thus making raising the main more difficult.

I decided to try again WITH THE RUDDER UP!

With the keel fully down, with no engine and crucially RUDDER UP she holds straight into wind no problem at all, drifting slowly astern.

I then employed Matt's method of raising the main ie slack main sheet, slack kicker and 1 of the lazy jacks rapped round the boom and connected to the other side of the boom - so as to raise the boom slightly.

Hey presto - main all the way up no problem what so ever.

I then enjoyed a day of single handed sailing in increasing wind.  By the time I came back to the quay the wind strength was about 16 knots, so I tried the head to wind method again to drop the main and furl the jib.  I didn't even bother with the engine at all, I just slackened main and jib and tightened the mizzen.  As soon as I pulled up the rudder straight into wind she pointed.  Great very happy bunny.

When I was ashore and putting my baby to bed 2 other club members came into the boat park to tell me that they wished they had a boat that would hold itself "head to wind" so effectively!

I hope this post helps others with similar problems

Roy

[Andy Dingle]

Thank you for the informative post Roy.

I entirely agree with your findings - my Bayraider is generally quite good at holding to wind but like most I found there were so many variables that seem intent on knocking the boat off the wind, right when you are at a critical stage of doing something essential.

I too found this out by experimenting like you did, but in addition to raising the rudder I found that leaving the engine on in forward - speed dependent on sea conditions - worked well at keeping the boat headed into wind. Centreboard fully down.
I think that it's that the forward motion develops an apparent wind that will always be forward of the true wind?
So my apologies for not saying this several years ago! It would perhaps have saved you the time - but it seems you had an enjoyable day 'experimenting' which, of course is what it is all about.

Incidentally, I find, time and time again, in fact that my (WE) Bayraider sails better with a full tank, especially single handing, unless on a totally smooth sea (or lake), and I would argue that speed is hardly effected ...? We could argue this point all day, but that is my perception.
Certainly she is far more prone to blowing off the wind with an empty tank - and being knocked back into stays when going about in a sea way if the waves are either side of the bow.
Maybe that is because she is lighter than the GRP boats .. I don't know.
I am assuming you had full water ballast in on your experiments? Have you tried with full and empty tank?

But thanks anyway.

Andy

BR20 No.12 'Psalter'
BC23 No.25 'Equinox'

[Royboy]

Hi Andy

Tanks were full - haven't tried the rudder up method with empty tanks (yet!)

Cheers

Roy

[Jonathan Stuart]

Thanks Roy, I must try this with the rudder up. With the other changes you mentioned plus a topping lift and the boom well raised (thus de-powering the main) I have been able to raise the sail fully while 10-20 degrees off head to wind so that is useful. But being able to remain head to wind is ideal and I will try the rudder tip.

Andy's point re ballast is interesting and something I have been thinking about recently. At risk of going seriously off topic....I might be wrong but it strikes me that the use of water ballast is described differently for the BayCruisers vs BayRaiders. That is, on BCs the thinking seems to be to use ballast almost all the time and it is as if the boat is designed to be ballasted and the water ballast reduces weight on the trailer. With a BR/BRe we tend to view sailing unballasted as the default and add ballast when conditions dictate. However, take a look at the boat metrics Graham W put together (link below) and we see the sail area/displacement ratios for the BC23 & BR/BRe with and without ballast are very similar. So perhaps the way ballast is used in BCs & BRs should follow the same principles or am I missing something?

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=433

[Peter Taylor]

My BC20 never sits head to wind when I want her to but I've never tried "rudder up"... it sounds a good tip, I hope it works for Seatern!

With regard to ballast, in light weather I do like to empty the tanks if I'm beating because I find the boat more responsive to wind changes and I can sail her more like a dinghy. She accelerates faster in gusts and its easier to work wind shifts.  Off the wind -  reaching or a run - I fly the asymmetric and (at least initially after setting it) I prefer to have the tanks full just in case everything goes pear shaped! This rather perverse use of the tanks in light winds - empty upwind, full downwind - means I'm quite often filling or emptying them which is why I've just installed an electric ballast pump for both filling and emptying (see different thread).

If there's enough wind to get up near hull speed then, since I don't expect the BC20 to plane, I don't think that having full tanks will slow the boat down and it certainly feels a lot more reassuring! In any case, in those conditions there will be waves, so going up wind I'd expect the BC20 to be faster with tanks full - more stability and less slamming. She may even point higher?

My guess would be that the main difference in tank use between a BC and BR/BRe is that there's a lot more stuff in the BC cabin to get in a mess if the boat does capsize so there's more incentive usually to sail with tanks full!

Peter

[Royboy]

Hi guys

It is off topic but I tend to sail with the tanks full.  I only leave them empty in light airs. 

I have also experimented with full and empty to see the difference - and found that with regard to speed - it makes only slight difference - stability though (obviously) is greatly improved with tanks full.

I often sail on my own and much prefer tanks full in this scenario.  The main reason for this is that I like to set the tiller tamer and go forward to "fiddle" with the sails etc.  The boat happily keeps its course whilst I do this if the tanks are full - but "wonders" with the tanks empty - I am presuming this is due to my small frame (6ft 2 and 18stone!). 

I am impressed how little the boat heel changes when the tanks are full and I move about.  When they are empty its a different story!

If anyone suggests a diet - I will sit on them at the next event I attend!  I am very happy sailing with the tanks full.

When it does go pear shaped (I have had "much water over gun whales" both with tanks full and empty) spilling a little wind has a much more reassuring effect with the tanks full!


Roy

[Royboy]

I have spoken to Matt Newland today and he was very interested in the "rudder up" head to wind issue - and could see why it would work.

I'm just glad he didn't laugh at me and say "of course that's what you do Roy, basic sailing skill!"

Phew

Anyway he approves

Roy

[Peter Taylor]

On Thursday I tried raising the rudder on my BC20 to keep her head to wind while raising the main (with jib furled and mizzen already set) and, on the two occasions I did it, it seemed to work! "Seemed" because the wind was light so she might have sat there anyway so I'll see what happens when there is more wind.  I can see why it could/should work... however  it did seem all wrong not to have the rudder lowered and available for use!

Peter

[Matthew P]

A previous interesting discussion on heaving-to in 2012 can be found at:

Swallow Boats Association » Swallow Boats Forum » Technical» Heaving to

The unexpurgated version can be viewed by logging into the forum before opening it!

See also Graham's article "Heaving to" on this forum

Matthew
Gladys BR20

[Peter Taylor]

A previous interesting discussion on heaving-to in 2012 can be found at:
Swallow Boats Association » Swallow Boats Forum » Technical» Heaving to
The unexpurgated version can be viewed by logging into the forum before opening it!
See also Graham's article "Heaving to" on this forum
Matthew
Gladys BR20

Yes, but the problem I'm trying to solve is not "heaving to" as such but what the thread title says! How to keep, in my case a BC20, pointing more or less straight into the wind so that it is easy to raise the fully battened main up past the lazy-jacks and the topping lift. Before I had Seatern I assumed that the mizzen would make it easy - jib furled, mizzen centred, tiller held central by the Tiller Pilot, simple!  But Seatern pays off and starts sailing at about 30 degrees to the wind powered by the mizzen - presumably because of the windage of the cabin. I can still get the main up but it's more of a fiddle waiting for the right flap of the sail to get the next batten up between the lazy jacks.  Raising the rudder seems promising and lowering it again only takes a moment - but it just feels wrong!

Peter

[Royboy]

Peter

Thanks for the reply.

With regard to the worry/concern of the rudder being up - I leave the engine down and ready for use while the rudder is up.  I usually use the torqedo, which is always ready - but if using a traditional outboard then running in neutral would suffice.

Roy

[Tony]

Hi, Folks.
The BR 20 is more capable than the CBL in all respects - or should be! I am, therefore surprised at the problems people seem to have with the “head to wind” issue. Four Sisters sits head to wind like a good 'un and does so with little prompting. It has to be something to do with the underwater profile, I suppose, though why I don't know.
All I have to do is let go the mainsheet and rudder, haul in the mizzen flat and , cabin windage or not, she rounds up and sits as comfortable as a duck – until she starts making sternway, that is. When water starts to flow over the rudder it needs to be locked centrally or it'll flip over, one way or the other causing all sorts of grief.
Once head to wind  it makes no difference if the rudder  or bilge boards are up or down, she'll stay head to wind. (I think this may be because she has a relatively larger mizzen than the BR, BRe or BC.) In fact, with the boards down, let the main run free and she'll round up into the wind from any point of sailing short of a dead run all by herself. (I thought most boats would – that shows MY ignorance!)
This'll do nicely for raising the mainsail and such but making one or two knots of sternway carries the unacceptable penalty of lost windward progress if you keep it up for more than a few minutes.
I presume heaving to in a BRe is straightforward. With no jb to back, the CBL needs a different technique. Keep the mizzen hard in but lock the rudder just a little off central. As she gathers sternway the rudder will steer her off the wind and, if you have the mainsheet hauled in a little she will start to sail forward on a close reach - at which point the rudder will turn her back into the wind – or even tack her if you are not careful! If that happens she cheerfully tacks and gybes herself in every decreasing circles until you are giddy and sick of the whole business. With practice, though, you can have the mainsheet set just enough so that it all balances nicely and she forereaches slowly at a fine angle to the wind and weather. I’m not sure if this constitutes “heaving to” in the accepted sense as it doesn’t produce a slick to windward capable of protecting her from breaking waves (not that I’ve tried it in much of a seaway) but it does stop the boat losing ground quite so fast.

[Guy Rossey]

"I too found this out by experimenting like you did, but in addition to raising the rudder I found that leaving the engine on in forward - speed dependent on sea conditions - worked well at keeping the boat headed into wind. "

Andy,
isn't this dangerous while raising the main to leave the engine on in forward when singlehanded, boat going straight ahead for a long while ? If something odd happens ...I usually stop the boat before raising the sail.
Cheers.
__________________
Guy
Catchando Bay BR#48

[Andy Dingle]

A valid point Guy, but I think this business of raising the main whilst you are on your lonesome on the high seas is far from an exact science. I think it's one of those subjects where everyone know his own boat and how she performs and they do what works best for them.

My personal view point is that with my engine in forward and the boat making ahead - the apparent wind will naturally swing forward even if you are not true into wind. She will also tend to power through the waves (ballast tank full - another discussion point there!) instead of getting batted off to one side or t'other and we all know that fighting the enormous slab of canvas whilst the boom is intent upon knocking us into the 'oggin is also pretty dangerous and scary.

My Bayraider (not mine now, she is sold) had a Barton track running up the full extent of the mast. The gaff spar and the main were fitted with Barton cars. Hence the main would zip up the mast faster than a scared cat up a tree. An excellent feature that sadly does not feature on BR's nowadays.

If the boat is underway, whether powered by engine or sail, if you go overboard you're doomed in any case. I agree the prop will be spinning but it is quite well tucked away - in any case I have the kill cord securely affixed to myself - as we all do, don't we?!

Regards

[Jonathan Stuart]

Like Andy I also generally keep the engine running, with fairly low revs, and in gear when raising the sail. The speed is enough to keep the boat head to wind but not enough to add to the challenges!

I sailed a BR20 (Andy's) for the first time earlier this year and was struck by how well it stayed head to wind. While Andy was faffing (technical term) with the main for 5 mins or so, we gently drifted backwards down Rutland Water and as long as I kept the rudder straight then the bow remained on the wind. I was slightly jealous that my BRe doesn't do the same. I can only think that the cabin and longer mast have enough windage to cause this behaviour. I can work around it but the BRe certainly doesn't sit head-to-wind as easily as the BR does.