Sail combinations on ketch/yawl

[Colin Morley]

Thanks you all. These are very useful and important postings.
I am not going to add much but just talk about tacking and the mizzen. Tacking the BR with jib and mizzen or full sail in light winds can be difficult. I have spent hours trying to beat against the wind up the Rivers Bure and Waveney.
However, If you use the mizzen the BR almost spins round. You just have to think of the mizzen as the tail fin like on a plane. If you want to tack round to starboard pull the mizzen over to starboard and it steers the boat round. Also watch the jib. The self tacking jib is fine for lots of water but in close quarters, if the jib is in tight to get to windward, as you pass onto the other tack it pulls the boat down to the lee very quickly unless it is freed right off. So don't just leave the jib to "self tack"
So for tacking in close quarters use the mizzen to steer the boat round (of course you use the tiller as well)( what my grandson calls the thriller!) and free off the jib as it passes through the wind and don't tighten up until you are on the next tack.

[Graham W]

You just have to think of the mizzen as the tail fin like on a plane.

Colin
I have been trying to calculate how to do this (working out the physics each time mostly defeated me) and your advice will make it more instinctive next time round.  Thank you!
Graham

[Graham W]

On bigger boats (my last was a Feeling 326) the sailmaker (Kemp) incorporated leach line into the leaches of the jib and main.

My BR has this and was standard in the making of the sails. I hadn't seen one before and had to ask Andrew Denman what this bit of string was hanging down. It works quite well and I just put a bit of tension on when the wind picks up and any fluttering stops.

David

My wife always says that I am unobservant and this proves it - I have leech lines on my mainsail and my jib that I had not noticed before (picture of jib leech line below).  For a small tweak, they have a dramatic effect on the leech tension and the shape of the sail.  I think this effectively banishes leech thrumming misery.  These pieces of string are not mentioned in the BR manual and certainly should be.  Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

[Julian Swindell]

Further thoughts on sail combinations. I was out on Sunday in what was probably F6 (gusting F12 I'd swear). Sailing down wind under three sails with a double reef in the main was exciting but when I was caught up by a few largish waves, the boat tried to swing up into the wind and broach. Steering back downwind was tricky because so much speed was lost sliding down the back of the wave that most steerage way was gone. I wondered if when sailing downwind in strong winds, it might be better to furl the mizzen, so there is less force on the back of the boat if you get even slightly across the wind? Anyone have any ideas on this? Has anyone developed a system for quickly furling the mizzen from the cockpit? I don't fancy clambering around the stern deck in these conditions to get it rolled up.

[Graham W]

In an emergency (and a following F12 would certainly qualify), I have depowered the mizzen by letting go the outhaul until I could find something tidier to do with it. This generates a lot of flapping and noise but has not whipped my eyes out yet.

[Julian Swindell]

That raises another point on the mizzen. I have changed to a traditional snotter arrangement. The clew of the mizzen is lashed to the end of the sprit. The heel goes in a loop on a snotter rope which I yank downwards into a cleat on the mast. (The first photo shows the original arrangement, the second photo shows the new one with a small block tied to the mast. I have recently replaced this with a simple stainless steel thimble in the original brown rope loop.) I find this much easier to set up hard, but the heel stick forward a bit and fouls the main sheet on occasion. I am planning to move the mainsheet fixing on the boom forward a bit to see if it helps prevent this. I find this whole arrangement easier to work than the original clew outhaul on the sprit.

[Tony]

More on Mizzens.

 In a bid to prevent the mizzen falling out when sailing my CBL upside down (...don’t ask!) I tied a short length of 10mm stuff just under the support bracket to act as a keeper.  While trying to tension this bit of string, I found that it had enough leverage to spin the mast in its socket.
Hmm.
Guess what?  I now have a roller furling mizzen!

I think this could be made to work on a BR20, too, unless the mast just spins in the luff pocket (CBL sail is laced on.)

The only modifications from standard are:-

•   A wooden plug fitted into the butt of the mizzen mast. This reduces friction and lets the mast spin more freely.
•   A length of “grippy” cord.
•   A modified tube cleat. This adds a bit of friction to the set up so that the cord winds around the mast snugly.
•   A fairlead to take any lateral strains.

To operate:

The sprit boom is fixed to the clew of the mizzen via the mizzen outhaul. As you push out the boom the mizzen unfurls, winding the new control line around the mast. ( Its about 6 or 7 full turns.)
Fix the snotter to the sprit boom as usual and take up on the outhaul to suit the conditions. (Full for light airs, flat for a blow.)

To furl the sail, simply unhook the snotter , rest the boom on your shoulder (this gives a neater furl than simply chucking the loose end onto the cockpit and letting the sail billow and flog)   and pull on the control line. The sail dutifully rolls away in seconds. You still have to get the boom out of the way by lashing it to the mizzen mast with a loop of shock cord but no longer do you have to struggle to wind the sail in with the boat having to look after herself for a couple of minutes.

Hope the sketch explains all.

[Julian Swindell]

That could work on my boat. I can rotate the mast to furl the sail, but I tend to prefer just rolling the sail up and putting bungees round it and the mast. I unhook the snotter, tip the sprit up along the leach of the sail and then roll it round. It is quicker than rotating the mast and quicker when deploying the sail. The only problem is in a strong wind if you lose the sail as you start to roll it up, when it flaps about like mad. You are also facing the wrong way for a minute or so as you do it.
On the BayCruiser (and the Raider I think) the mast is held in its socket by a clever D shaped plate in the bottom. You drop it in back-to-front. When you rotate it round the right way, it locks in place.

[Guy Rossey]

Julian,

from the first picture and from your description above the mainsheet fixation is moved back to the mizzen tabernacle. Could you comment on the pros and cons of this set-up from your experience ? Specific to the BayCruiser?  Thanks.

Guy
BR Catchando Bay

[Julian Swindell]

My BayCruiser is no1 and to some extent a prototype. The mainsheet fixing is just to a simple rope loop at the base of the mizzen. All the subsequent Cruisers I believe have a full width mainsheet track across the back of the cockpit. I doubt that it has a great affect on the sail shape one way or the other, but I do have a slight problem with the main sheet fouling the heel of the mizzen sprit when I tack or gybe. With the track this is probably less of a problem as the sheet won't go so loose during the change over. I am planning to move the fixing of the main sheet further forward on the boom (it is right at the end) and this may cur thw problem. The main advantage of my system is that it is incredibly simple and unjammable.

[David]

David,
I looked on the Australian website but could not see it clearly in any of the photos.  Do you have a picture that you could post?
Graham

Hi Graham

Sorry I havn't got back earlier but I have been waiting for some decent weather to get the sails out of the shed loft. Its been gusting over 40kts for weeks and the few times its dropped it was dead calm. I believe you have now found the missing bit of string

Cheers
David

[Tony]

That could work on my boat....
On the BayCruiser (and the Raider I think) the mast is held in its socket by a clever D shaped plate in the bottom. You drop it in back-to-front. When you rotate it round the right way, it locks in place.

Hi Julian.
If the mast is positively located with this D-plate arrangement  (a Good Thing, I should imagine) I don’t think you’ll be able to spin the mast for roller furling – unless you can alter the D-plate in some way with a pivot.  It all gets complicated.
This is the joy of Swallow Boats range. You can have the high tech BayRaider/Cruiser series (17 to 23 feet) which, with water ballast, are undeniably the better boats – and some say the best trailer sailers on the market – or the relatively simple but clever Storm series (15 to 19 feet), my beloved Cardigan Bay Lugger and, before someone jumps down my throat, there’s the 12 foot Trouper and the Windsome pedal boat. Phew!
 
Below is a sketch of the mainsheet arrangement on the CBL  which, with the track mounted on the cabin top, is really handy for getting the best out of her for going to windward.

[David]

7) Straight downwind the best for me is the odd combination of mizzen and main, with the jib furled. I find if the jib is up, I spend too much effort trying to keep it full, and the mainsail is all over the place, or gybing when I least expect it. With jib furled I concentrate on keeping the main full, and the mizzen looks after itself. The boat seems to go much faster as a result.

Anyone have similar or different findings?

Hi Julian

I was out sailing today and tried using the mizzen and main and the boat sailed very well and I could point quite high. I was about to try just the main but the wind dropped (I wonder if there is some correlation with putting the water ballast in and the wind dropping.). My only concern with this setup is I noticed my leeward stay was much looser then if I have the jib up and thought this may lead to movement in the mast. It seems to be a slight disadvantage of the BR in that having the jib furled takes away some of the tautness in the mast stays. Once when I was motoring in a bit of a chop I brought the jib boom to the centre then tied it up to one of the mast cleats to maintain some pressure.

I also tried a simple but cheap self steering sytem by running a line from the aft cleat to the rollock on each side then a line to the tiller with a loop of shock cord on. It sort of worked but hard to adjust and I can see why the tillermate was invented.

David
Little Ripple

[Julian Swindell]

The self tacking balanced jib does have the feature that the luff tension drops the the jib is furled and this will lead to the shrouds slacking off a bit. I think Claus Riepe tackles this by having a line from the outboard end of the jib boom down to a fixing on the bow near the water line. This effectively keeps the jib luff tensioned all the time. If the point where the line is fixed to the bow is vertically below the pivot point on the jib boom, it should have no effect on the self tacking capabilities. My jib is a conventional loose footed one. The only oddity with mine is that I use a four part handy-billy to tension the luff. I just can't pull it tight enough with muscle power alone.

[David]

I think Claus Riepe tackles this by having a line from the outboard end of the jib boom down to a fixing on the bow near the water line.

I wonder if the point for attaching the trailer winch to would be ok to try that. When I have got concerned is motoring in dead calm water and one of those cruisers goes by creating a wake big enough to surf on and the boat rolls substantially.

David