Sail combinations on ketch/yawl

[Julian Swindell]

I'm interested in others' experiences using different combinations of the three sails on Swallowboat yawls (or ketches or whatever, I'm not getting into that argument).

When I was pottering around Poole harbour a couple of weeks ago I tried all combinations with some very unscientific results.:
1) With all three sails you get the best balance, particularly close hauled or on a close reach. To the extent that I can lash the tiller and she will sail herself for miles.
2) Beating up wind is quicker and closer to the wind with the mizzen fully furled and treating the rig as a sloop
3) Mainsail on its own works quite well and is great if you are feeling really bone-idle
4) Jib and mizzen is good as a big reef, is very balanced but tacking can be hard and you really need to work both the jib and the mizzen to get round, if you can at all. It is a great setup if you want to just bob through all the moored boats having a good look at them (something that I love doing, there are some really weird and wonderful boats in Poole Harbour)
5) Jib alone hardly gets you anywhere
6) Mizzen alone works surprisingly well down wind and cross wind, but can take over the steering unexpectedly. It is also ideal for keeping head to wind when you need to, which is the best reason for having a mizzen in my view.
7) Straight downwind the best for me is the odd combination of mizzen and main, with the jib furled. I find if the jib is up, I spend too much effort trying to keep it full, and the mainsail is all over the place, or gybing when I least expect it. With jib furled I concentrate on keeping the main full, and the mizzen looks after itself. The boat seems to go much faster as a result.

Anyone have similar or different findings?

[David]

I'm interested in others' experiences using different combinations of the three sails on Swallowboat
Anyone have similar or different findings?

Hi Julian

I havn't done anything very scientific as yet and have only had my BR since October but have been out quite a bit.

My observations so far is I agree that it appears to be best balanced with all 3 sails though I havn'y tried beating to windward without the mizzen. I also agree the jib dosn't do much when running down wind but I let the mizzen out a lot as it also acts as a driving sail.

I have had a few goes sailing under jib and mizzen in strong winds but not excessively strong and I find I can't point very well at all or get it to tack. With the water ballast in and the main on its second reef thats about the strongest wind (around 25-30kts) that I feel comfortable in so probably don't have a need for that combination. I have a crook shoulder (bursitis from too much sea kayaking) and have been reluctant to try the BRs self righting ability, though I feel I should.

I had a go once at sailing down wind with just the mizzen just to see what happened and the boat sailed comfortably  sideways and didn't take much notice of the rudder. It does work well at keeping the nose into the wind

I am interested in your set up for self steerage. I am off on a long trip the end of July and a few dayss will be 6-8 hours so need to take my hands off the tiller for a while.

I have recently stared experimenting with what happens when you let go of the tiller as I felt with 2 sails (jib and mizzen) usually set the boat may sail off without me should I fall out. I would be interested to know of others views who have tried this. The one time I tried it in lightest winds the boat luffed up then fell away and jibed around, sort of went around in circles.

I have enlosed a photo of my usual sailing spot and normal summer wind where I live

cheers
David
Little Ripple

[Graham W]

I'm interested in others' experiences using different combinations of the three sails on Swallowboat yawls (or ketches or whatever, I'm not getting into that argument).

When I was pottering around Poole harbour a couple of weeks ago I tried all combinations with some very unscientific results.:
1) With all three sails you get the best balance, particularly close hauled or on a close reach. To the extent that I can lash the tiller and she will sail herself for miles.
2) Beating up wind is quicker and closer to the wind with the mizzen fully furled and treating the rig as a sloop
3) Mainsail on its own works quite well and is great if you are feeling really bone-idle
4) Jib and mizzen is good as a big reef, is very balanced but tacking can be hard and you really need to work both the jib and the mizzen to get round, if you can at all. It is a great setup if you want to just bob through all the moored boats having a good look at them (something that I love doing, there are some really weird and wonderful boats in Poole Harbour)
5) Jib alone hardly gets you anywhere
6) Mizzen alone works surprisingly well down wind and cross wind, but can take over the steering unexpectedly. It is also ideal for keeping head to wind when you need to, which is the best reason for having a mizzen in my view.
7) Straight downwind the best for me is the odd combination of mizzen and main, with the jib furled. I find if the jib is up, I spend too much effort trying to keep it full, and the mainsail is all over the place, or gybing when I least expect it. With jib furled I concentrate on keeping the main full, and the mizzen looks after itself. The boat seems to go much faster as a result.

Anyone have similar or different findings?

Julian,
I am intrigued and surprised by no. 2, beating efficiently with mainsail and jib alone.  Why would that be?  I shall give it a go next time out.

Never having had a boat with a mizzen before, I agree wholeheartedly with no. 6, going downwind under mizzen alone.  I was astonished the other day to easily reach 5 knots in a F5. The other advantage is that the mizzen can be depowered in an instant from close by the helm by releasing the outhaul. And yes, it is great for keeping nose to wind when needed.

I also agree with no. 7 in that the jib does not contribute much, if anything, downwind but as the mizzen is much easier to goosewing with the main, I do not think this is a problem.  I usually just ignore the jib and allow it to swing about uselessly rather than abandon the helm to furl it. If I have crew, it is a different matter.

[Graham W]

I am interested in your set up for self steerage. I am off on a long trip the end of July and a few dayss will be 6-8 hours so need to take my hands off the tiller for a while.

I have recently stared experimenting with what happens when you let go of the tiller as I felt with 2 sails (jib and mizzen) usually set the boat may sail off without me should I fall out. I would be interested to know of others views who have tried this. The one time I tried it in lightest winds the boat luffed up then fell away and jibed around, sort of went around in circles.

I have enlosed a photo of my usual sailing spot and normal summer wind where I live

cheers
David
Little Ripple

David,
As you have an awning and probably want to keep out of the sun some of the time, I have just posted a self-steering set up that can also be used for central steering with the engine.  Different topic under Technical.

[David]

Thanks Graham

That gives me a idea to experiment with. The weather here has been lousy for quite a few weeks so havn't been out much. My tarp is predominantly for shade

David

[Tony]

Re:-  Sailing with Mizzen only....a cautionary tale.

The Yawl  (Ok, Ketch!) rig, as set up on Swallow Boats, main advantages are not out and out speed - or windward performance - but ease of handling. Using jib and mizzen is well known as a "get out of jail, free" card when things turn nasty but it is in close quarter handling that the mizzen comes into its own. ( Try the effects of using combinations of hull windage, raising or lowering the centre board, and the mizzen, hardened up, backed or even reversed into the cockpit, in making the boat do tricks around a mooring. I find "reverse parking" - sailing backwards onto or off a pontoon space - particularly satisfying!)
A word of warning, though.
Sailing down wind under mizzen alone is useful in some circumstances- but only in light winds and flat seas, please. Remember that the boat is very un balanced like this.
 Get a wave under you with no fore sail and you better make sure you can dump the wind out of the mizzen damn quick. It has huge leverage on the stern and you can expect to broach violently off the top of the wave and possibly get pinned down to be rolled by the next wave.
This happened to me six years ago when a friend let go the mainsheet of my (then) brand new CBL while sailing on a broad reach in a F5 and steep waves. I was rooting about in the cabin at the time and it happened so quickly I thought I was having a Stroke. I now know what a wet sock in a tumble drier feels like. Luckily, the water is warm in the Ionian!

Incidentally, despite crashing out like this, with all the hatches open and the boat upside down for a while in quite big seas, nothing broke. Tough old boat the CBL!

[Julian Swindell]

I wouldn't advocate sailing on mizzen only. I just tried it to see what it was like. Fortunately I stayed upright. When I do use it on its own is for motoring, especially if it is windy. It does keep you pointing in the direction you want to go in, even if it does introduce a bit of leeway.

[Tony]

Hi, Julian.

Agreed....very useful for anything where you need to keep the bows facing the weather. Picking up a mooring,fishing etc.  Have you noticed the roll damping effect when motoring? Most obvious when motoring across an old swell on windless days. 

Made a "new" discovery the other day. Didnt think you could heave to properly in a lug and mizzen rig and was quite happy to simply sheet the mizzen in hard, let the main sheet loose when I wanted a breather. (She would lie quiet, head to wind and drift back at about 2 knots in an F5/6 or about 1 knot in something more civilized.)
However, locking the tiller hard over with the mizzen sheet hard in produces a much slower drift at about 45 degrees to the wind with a nice wide slick to windward - at the cost of a bit of heeling.  She comes head to wind in strong gusts and bears off again between times. She seems to be sailing on the cabin windage and may even be encouraged to fore reach with a touch of main sheet. I suppose on the BC you just back the jib?

[Julian Swindell]

Yes, I just back the jib, lash the tiller down to windward and then sit back and have some lunch. She just bobs slowly sideways. If you are lucky and can plan it well you can bob against any current and end up pretty well stationary over the ground. I am surprised I so rarely see anyone heaving to, I do it all the time. Maybe they don't know that it can be done?

[Graham W]

Just back from sailing on Bala in an F6, gusting F7.  In my defence, your honour, the weather forecast was for an F5.  I sailed ballasted under jib and mizzen only and was pleased with how much progress I could make to windward.  I can imagine that without the momentum provided by the ballast, it would be difficult to get the head round on to the opposite tack.  But with ballast, she just describes a stately arc and off she goes on the opposite tack.

Nothing broke but the leach of the *@£$xxx jib is still thrumming away and it is driving me mad.  It only does it on a starboard tack, which makes me think that it must be a distortion caused by the furling gear.  Anybody got any ideas?  The suggestions on the mainsail were all very helpful (different thread) but I have not been able to try them out properly yet.

[Anthony Huggett]

On bigger boats (my last was a Feeling 326) the sailmaker (Kemp) incorporated leach line into the leaches of the jib and main. Effectively this was a piece of thin cord inside a sleeve on the after edge of the sail, secured near the top, with a cleat at the bottom. By applying minimal tension to the line, all the thrum could be taken out of the sail. Of course, too much tension caused a nasty hooked shape in the leach, disturbing the air flow, so the line tension had to be adjusted to the conditions.

[David]

On bigger boats (my last was a Feeling 326) the sailmaker (Kemp) incorporated leach line into the leaches of the jib and main.

My BR has this and was standard in the making of the sails. I hadn't seen one before and had to ask Andrew Denman what this bit of string was hanging down. It works quite well and I just put a bit of tension on when the wind picks up and any fluttering stops.

David

[Julian Swindell]

I've got two leach lines on my mainsail, but not on the jib. I'm not sure if they work well there. The shock loads of tacking might break them. But maybe OK on a balanced boomed jib?

[Anthony Huggett]

The genoa on a Feeling 326 is somewhat larger than the jib on a BR 20, and we experienced no such issues when tacking. That said the shock factor wasn't the same because that sail wasn't self-tacking.

[Graham W]

My BR has this and was standard in the making of the sails. I hadn't seen one before and had to ask Andrew Denman what this bit of string was hanging down. It works quite well and I just put a bit of tension on when the wind picks up and any fluttering stops.

David

David,
I looked on the Australian website but could not see it clearly in any of the photos.  Do you have a picture that you could post?
Graham