Sump Pump

[Matthew P]

Attached shows a Whale gusher Titan pump fitted into my BR20.  At a claimed 105 ltrs per minute it clears the ballast tank in less than 4 minutes, allowing for a little huffing and puffing by the operator.

By locating it close to the port side it does not impede a 6HP Tohatsu. The pump sits level with the top of the outboard wall and is supported by a 25mm wooden pad in the recess below.

A 40mm drain plug in the centre of the ballast tank wall keeps up the supply of water into the sump from the ballast tank.  I have yet to follow Claus s recommendation and fit drain plugs on either side, Ill see how it works this season.

Matthew

[Colin Lawson]

I have a similar arrangement along with central and side drain plugs in the back of the ballast tank. 

To allow air in and out of the ballast tank I installed a drain plug in the main ballast tank hatch.  Simple to fit and non obstructive (can't trip over it) and easily reached by the helmsman. 

Only problem is that there is still quite a lot of water left in the ballast tank when the flow of water into the sump comes to an end.  So I have installed a longer length of pipe (normally coiled in the sump) so that I have the option of using this to pump the excess out of the ballast tank.

Colin

[Graham W]

I have a self bailer to one side of the water ballast inlet plug, to speed up tank emptying and to help get rid of water not collected in the sump.  Colin's extra length of pump hose is a less invasive way of dealing with the latter. Another alternative would be to have a cheap portable hand pump which is always useful as a backup and weighs little.

[Colin Morley]

What about plugging the pump pipe directly into one of the holes draining the ballast tank to get the residual water out? Any one tried this?

[Colin Lawson]

I suspect that plugging the pump pipe directly into one of the holes draining the ballast tank would not be very effective (but I have not tried it).  I find that the rate of flow of water from the ballast tank into the sump drops off significantly with what appears to be a half full tank still remaining. I assume that the drain holes into the sump are above the lowest level of the ballast tank.  This is likely to mean that you will always need another method to completely empty the ballast tank, unless you have enough crew to sit on the stern to ensure the water drains into the sump.  I have resorted to the extra long pump hose which works fine but is not ideal.  I suspect Graham's extra self bailer in the ballast tank  below the main hatch is a good solution but I am loath to cut another hole in the hull for yet another self bailer.

[Peter Cockerton]

Thinking out aloud here with an idea to make a moulded cap which would sit over and seal against one of the existing self drainers in the sump. The cap would have a hose moulded into it and the other end of the hose placed into the drain plug of the tank. When an inline valve was opened the water pressure would feed the self drainer, when the water level had dropped below the sump level i wonder if the suction created by the self drainer would drain the remaining water in the tank. As i say just an idea with only a small amount of confidence it would work.

[Peteri]

When I had a BR20 I had a Whale Gusher screwed to the outboard support, with the exit passing through the wood, and an inlet pipe pipe that I dropped into the ballast tank.  That worked fairly well but now I have a Bay Raider Expedition.  I have a Rule Aquacharge pump it costs about £63 http://www.aquachargepump.com/ It has an internal rechargeable battery. you just open the bungs that let the water flow from the ballast tank to the sump, drop in the pump and in 5 minutes its all gone.  Saves a lot of pumping or trying to get boat speed up enough to make the self bailers work.  Its also probably better than lots of wiring and holes for a fixed pump.
There is some water left in the ballast tank that won't come out through the rear bungs, but as I pull the boat out up a slope I leave everything open and it all floods out.

[Graham W]

I find that the rate of flow of water from the ballast tank into the sump drops off significantly with what appears to be a half full tank still remaining. I assume that the drain holes into the sump are above the lowest level of the ballast tank.  This is likely to mean that you will always need another method to completely empty the ballast tank

If you have three drain holes in the sump, one in the middle and one at each of the outer edges, then what appears to be half a ballast tank full is probably only two sumps full, especially if you have heeled when going to windward.  I had similarly thought that there was a large amount of water left in my tank, so I measured it one day by using a hand pump to empty it into the sump. Unless you are racing and need to reduce weight, two sumps full is not going to make a huge difference to performance and can be safely dealt with when you get back to port - or as Peter says, it will flood out when you haul it on to its trailer.

[Llafurio]

Graham,
I just learned by accident that Swallowboats had started fitting three small bungs centrally in the rear tank wall, NOT one big one in center and two smaller ones in each outermost corner. And I learned they fit "Super-Minis" inside the sump instead of the recommended "Minis" which are fitted on the outside under the sump. The two though similar in name have significant differences in their outlet geometries and sucking performance. (One would assume a "Super Mini" is something of an advanced and more powerful version of a "Mini", but far from it in this case.)

If he has a recent boat fitted out like this, that would explain why Colin Lawson finds his tank emptying under sail and motor insufficient. May I recommend users always say which model and build number they are talking about otherwise things may get confused.

[Graham W]

Claus,

Welcome back, the forum wasn't the same without you!

I noticed the same thing with the yard-installed bungs.  If you're going to the trouble of fitting three small ones in the middle, you might as well do one less fiddly big one.  This is what I use - the self retaining bit is useful too http://www.seamarknunn.com/acatalog/info_CQ10-12395.html

I also use these on the outer edges of the aft tank wall, one each side.

For historical reasons, I have got two externally mounted self bailers of different sizes in the sump.  One Mini and one New Large.  The New Large seems to suck earlier and more than the Mini. I also have a Mini inside the tank, to one side of the inlet bung, which seems to work fairly well. I never use the forward bailers - too far from the tiller and the access hatches are usually buried under mounds of clutter.

Graham

[Colin Lawson]

My BR20 is a 2009 model.  I also followed the advice given by Claus and fitted a central and two lateral (screw) drain plugs in the aft of the ballast tank and like Graham I have fitted an external mini self drainer and this all works well. I will also replace the original internal super mini (with its poor hydrodynamics due to not being flush on the external surface of the hull) with a new large external flush fitting self drainer - this should fit the existing hole.

I have the Sususki 2.5 and mainly sail single handed so not much weight in the stern and as mentioned in an earlier message find that when draining the ballast tank into the sump and then into the self drainers the flow drops off before the ballast tank is empty.  However I take Graham's point that the amount of water left may not be very much - I will need to investigate this but I suspect that in my case lack of weight in the stern means more residual water in the ballast tank.  This is not significant problem but again, as mentioned in my previous message, Graham's solution of yet another self bailer inside the ballast tank but under the easily accessible main hatch looks like a good idea.

[Llafurio]

Colin,
you can save your money and spare your boat another hole.:
I had tried even two New Large under the hatch (one directly under the hatch, the other further aft, under the keel between the two keelbands), but they worked practically zero once the tank was past half empty. That disappointing result was what started the experimenting with  the gravity draining into the sump which worked a great deal better.
Graham is right, yes there is some water remaining inside the tank with the gravity system, but that amount of water is small and insignificant. To get the tank completely dry you have to sponge it dry through the main hatch.

Now the problem with all selfbailers inside the tank is that they go leaking a bit after a while, more selfbailers meaning more leaking so, so you will have to go back at sponging out more often. With no selfbailers you at least can keep a dry sponged tank dry for a good while.

You are really best off with not a single selfbailer inside the tank, and with just the bungs in the rear tank wall, of which the outer -lateral- ones are the most important and effective ones to get as much water out as possible under sail and engine.

[Colin Lawson]

Thanks Claus.  I will prioritise replacement of the original selfbailer mounted from the inside of the sump with an externally flush fitting bailer.

My next issue is that one panel of the fixed (closed cell) bouyancy that should be attached to the underside of the ballast tank has detached itself and is not free to to float around in the ballaslt tank.  Has anyone had a similar prolbem.

The other us is with the Garmin 555s GPWS asnd echo sound ware which refuses to power up  - no sing of life even though I have chekeck the the voltage of the battery is 11 - 13 volts.

[Colin Lawson]

Sorry - too much wine - message sent before finished - I will try that last message again!

Thanks Claus.  I will prioritise replacement of the original selfbailer mounted from the inside of the sump with an externally flush fitting bailer.

My next issue is, that one panel of the fixed (closed cell) bouyancy that should be attached to the underside of the cockpit floor inside the ballast tank has detached itself and is now free to float around in the ballast tank.  Has anyone had a similar problem?

The other  is with the Garmin 555s GPS and echo sounder which has recently refused to power up  - no sign of life even though I have checked that the voltage of the battery is 11 - 12 volts and is getting through to the GPS.  Any ideas?

[Llafurio]

... one panel of the fixed (closed cell) bouyancy that should be attached to the underside of the cockpit floor inside the ballast tank has detached itself and is now free to float around in the ballast tank.  Has anyone had a similar problem?

I have that too on BR #11, for a year now. One foam panel has come loose, but it pretty much stays in the area where it was priorly attached, it does not float around the entire tank. Because, I have some fenders wedged inside the tank which I put there to limit the overall ballast water intake. This is not a terribly scientific thing and I certainly will not recommend it to anyone else, but it does work for me.

I have this theory : I believe when the production of the first plastic BRs had started, the volume of the fixed foam buoyancy inside the tank of the early plastic BRs was still identical to what was put before into the original preceding wood epoxy boats. As the plastic hulls are a good bit heavier than the wood epoxy ones, I figured that my plastic boat needed a bit less ballast water inside the tank to get the same heeling and righting stability that the wood epoxy boats have. My solution was to put some fenders in, mildly inflated, which now also act as wedges to keep the foam panels in their place and keep the loose one from floating around much. Again, it is something I do and am myself happy with, but it clearly does not have Matts official seal of approval, yet.