Bayraider Expedition vs Cornish Adventure 19

[Jonathan Cuff]

Hi guys

I've been on the internet for the last year looking at the relative merits of Cornish Shrimpers, Hawk 20, Drascombe's, Hunter 20 and Swallow Boats.

We want to buy a new boat and want something that looks great and will be good to use in estuaries and short coastal hops in good weather. Pretty rapidly we passed on the Hawk 20 (a bit too clinical and sporty), Drascombe (maybe a bit long in the tooth), and the Hunter 20 (great boat but perhaps a bit too much like a regular mini cruiser for us).

So we have come down to a choice between a Shrimper or a Bayraider Expedition and have been trying to weigh up the advantages/disadvantages of both. Have any of you sailed on both models? I really like the way the Bayraider is a fresh design and like the idea of the water ballast and outboard mount with ability to tilt up out of the way. I'm not so keen on the mizzen idea (mainly due to never having used one before) and wonder on the overall quality and potential longevity of the Expedition compared to the proven one of the Shimper.

I was coming down on the idea of the Expedition but Crabbers are now building the Adventure series which has freshened up the deisgn a bit with Bermudan rig (which I like) and less maintenance (no bad thing). However I worry that it's basically a rehash of what is a fairly old design and other things (such as the way the outboard is mounted) still remains.

I'm not performance crazy but it's not nice to be left trailing by everything and that's another reason the Expedition appeals. My wife wants a head onboard which Matt confirmed he can do on the Expedition and we will primarily be day sailing with the odd overnight stay, so I'm thinking cockpit space will be better than cabin space. I know the Expedition can be trailed easily but is it ok to leave on a mooring when in use?

I know both are great boats so I guess what I'm really asking is have any of you sailed on both and could you offer a comparison? Boat reviews in magazines always seem complimentary.........!

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Graham W]

Jonathan,

As no-one has answered so far, this may give you some idea of their relative performance and feel http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=433

The BayRaider Expedition (with and without water ballast) is shown near the top and the standard gunter-rigged Shrimper is shown at the bottom of the table. An unballasted BRe is like a racehorse compared to the Shrimper's drayhorse.  A BRe with full ballast is more like the Shrimper.

The best thing to do is to try to get trial sails in both.

[Jonathan Stuart]

Jonathan,

I haven't sailed a Shrimper/Adventure but I went through the same thought process two years ago and now own an Expedition so I will share my thoughts.

You needn't have any concerns about longevity. Swallow Boats have proved to build quality boats that retain their value well. Also, the BRe is really just a BayRaider 20 with a cabin added and the rig changed. Given that over 100 BR20s have now been produced this is a proven boat rather than anything too new and the number of BRes is now approaching 20 so this is also now a proven design.

The mizzen is nothing to worry about. It looks after itself and requires very little tweaking but it helps the BRe point high and makes the rig more flexible, e.g. in heavy winds, or for a slow sail, you can de-power by sailing under just jib and mizzen alone.

I am also not a performance nut but equally don't have the patience or karma to be happy bobbing about trailing all other boats. This is where the BR and BRe really shine. Having sailed in the Fal with lots of Shrimpers and Hawk 20s, I think that the BRe points slightly higher and is slightly faster than a Shrimper and with ballast tanks empty it matches a Hawk 20 on a beam reach. That's not bad given the Hawk's concessions to performance (i.e. too clinical and sporty as you said).

I trailer-sail my BRe but I have kept it on a mooring for 2 week stretches and I know others permanently moor theirs and I don't see any issues with that. But a key advantage of the BRe (and Bay Cruisers, see below) over the Shrimper is that it is far lighter and I suspect quicker to rig, so even if it does live on a mooring I suspect you would be happy to recover and trail the boat for a weekend's sailing elsewhere. I don't think that is realistic with the Shrimper.

Both the BRe and Shrimper are excellent boats but they are very different so the choice should really come to how you will use the boat. If you want mainly cockpit space and a day boat, but that also provides a dry cabin with the option for occasional overnighters then the BRe is perfect. In fact, the BRe lends itself to a very wide range of uses with few compromises. For example, in the past year I have sailed along the Dorset and Cornish coasts with my young family but also just completed Sail Caledonia where the boat was competitive in sail & oar races and my crew and I slept on the boat for 8 consecutive nights. A Shrimper doesn't have that range.

However, sleeping on a BRe is like camping in a luxury 2-man tent and the heads will get no more civilised that a porta potti. If you want a "proper" cabin and are prepared to sacrifice significant cockpit space then the BRe is not be the right boat. But if that's the case then I would  look at Swallow Boat's Bay Cruisers. They offer a similar arrangement to the Shrimper but in a more modern design and are lighter so easier to move if, say, you want to take the boat on holiday (every time I see a Shrimper being towed it reminds me that I would rather have a Bay Cruiser if I wanted that style of boat).

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Jonathan Cuff]

Jonathan- Many thanks for your measured reply. That's exactly the info I was looking for. I guess it's going to come down to Bayraider Expedition or the Baycruiser 20!

[Julian Swindell]

Just to add to Jonathan S's note. I feel that Swallowboats have come up with three remarkable designs. If you want an open cockpit boat that is fast but easy and safe, the Bayraider is unmatched. If you want a cabin version of said boat, they do one which is big cockpit/small cabin (BRe) or big cabin/small cockpit (BC20). Your only problem is deciding just what you want. They seem to cater for all.

Mind you, as soon as you buy one, you'll start thinking you REALLY wanted one of the others after all. Best buy all three (No I'm not on commission, but will be if this works.)

[Colin Morley]

The others have said it all - or almost!

Please dont be put off by an unfamiliar mizzen sail. It is not a sail to be set and left. It is very useful for several things:
Firstly manoeuvring, and quick short tacking. The mizzen can be used like the tail fin on a plane to help turn the boat quickly. So if you want to tack to starboard just pull the sail to starboard and it will help the boat turn. With a mizzen you should never get stuck head to wind when tacking. It can also be used to turn the boat when leaving a mooring.
Secondly,very subtle adjustments of the mizzen alter the pressure on the tiller. If you are having to pull the tiller to windward harder than you expect just slightly free the mizzen and the boat can be steered with a very light grip.
Thirdly, the BR sails very well in strong winds with just mizzen and jib.

[Woodman]

Jonathan

It all depends on what you want. I wouldnt have any qualms about the build quality of either boat, they have both been around long enough to reveal any weaknesses. The first Adventurer is pictured sailing from Lymington, but I havent seen a review yet, so how that rig works with the hull is unknown. Because of the change in rig, the Adventurer is 130kg lighter than a gaff shrimper, so together with a bermudan rig may point higher although probably slower off the wind without a spinnaker than the gaff. Cabin wise there is more room in a shrimper and you can have a sea loo, but having sailed them a few times I have no idea why you would want one on such a small boat.

The bay raider is probably a faster boat and always has good reviews, the only downside is that there does seem to be a fairly long order time at any point. Plenty of people here to give it a thumbs up and I am sure it wouldn't disappoint.

The Hawk is a good sailing boat, but now looks dated as opposed to 'classic' and its 'cabin' is not a nice place to be in, feels like a plastic coffin to me! You might also like to look at a cape cutter 19. The outboard is in the right place, the accommodation is remarkable in the length and she sails really well, certainly feels better than a shrimper in all but heavy airs at which point they even out on sail area so will be similar albeit the Cape Cutter is stiffer. Yes its a gaff but its a quick little boat for its size with plenty of sail area and very safe to handle. One of the owners Mike Brooke sailed his round Britain for charity and still thinks the boat is brilliant so its a seaworthy thing.

Happy choosing.

[Graham W]

Back in the previous century, I had a gunter-rigged Norfolk Gypsy with an inboard engine, which in many was similar to the Cornish Shrimper.  It was a great little boat, sailed well and was described as a trailer sailer.  This was technically correct but the weight meant that you didn't want to trail it too often and you would never think of just making a day of it.  It was therefore permanently moored in various marinas and in the end it didn't get out and about as often as it should.

I later moved to something smaller and lighter (a lugsail-rigged Lune Whammel), which could certainly be launched and retrieved easily but didn't sail to windward very well.  I briefly considered replacing it with a Drascombe (about the same displacement as the Whammel but sails better to windward) before coming across the BayRaider 20, which when unballasted displaces less than the Whammel but is in a different league when it comes to sailing.  I could therefore happily trail the boat all over Europe, launch and retrieve at will and enjoy excellent sailing performance as well.  I really liked the performance and reliability of the Gypsy's Yanmar inboard and very occasionally think that a permanent cabin would be useful but those are the only things that I miss.

[Tony]

Hi guys

I've been on the internet for the last year looking at the relative merits of Cornish Shrimpers, Hawk 20, Drascombe's, Hunter 20 and Swallow Boats.

Hi, Jonathan

- I think you know the answer now if you didn't before you posted !

Seven years ago I was suffering  on the horns of the same dilemma. I took my problem to Matt Newland and he came up with the Cardigan Bay Lugger, basically, a Storm 19 with a lid on.  It wasn’t the boat he wanted to build for me - a  21 footer  with a transom and water ballast was more of what he had in mind (sound familiar?) - but  it was the boat I could afford at the time.

Since then the CBL#1 “Four Sisters” has trailed all over the UK and each year made the road trip across France and Italy to the Greek islands of the Ionian - and back.
In all that time on the road and on the water I have come to the following conclusions:-

1.  A cabin just gets in the way most of the time when you are sailing, rowing, mooring up etc.  –  but when you want somewhere warm, dry and cosy after a hard, wet day it beats a boat tent hands down.  When sealed up on a rough passage it’s nice to know that, even if you get rolled, your stuff is secure and dry in there. (So.... how many times a year will you need to sleep aboard?  How often will you actually need a cabin?)
2.  The CBL is very light – easy to tow, easy to unhitch and shove around hotel car parks (You only need 2 parking spaces that way. Some hotels will turn you away if you need to stay hitched up. ) However, in fresh winds she needs a bit of ballast to calm things down and help keep her going against a seaway. Variable water ballast would be ideal on a boat like this. Unfortunately I only have  90kg of church roof to bolt to her keel when needed and it’s a pain to remove and replace.
3.  However good the boat is to sail, you won’t go anywhere if you can’t easily launch and recover from poor quality slipways in adverse  conditions – and single handed.  If it takes more than one person and more than half an hour to rig you haven’t got a “trailersailer”, you got a “trailable boat”. Nothing wrong with that if it suits you, but rigging a Hawk 20’s mast is definitely not a five minute job – and once you got a boat like that properly set up you aren’t going to haul her out for an afternoon jaunt on the Loch in the next valley, are you!
4. Where are you going to sail? No point having a boat that will weather a F9 gale at sea if it only gets going in F 5 and above on a lake.  No point having a tippy little yawl if you do most of your sailing in the North Sea.
5. You do not want to live in the same cabin as a chemical toilet! Believe me!
6. Do not EVER use a gas stove in a small cabin. It has two ways to kill you. Carbon monoxide, of course, and the fire risk.  If sleeping in sub-zero conditions use a hot water bottle, not the stove! Also, a rocking boat is no place to be sitting down close to boiling water or hot fat.   Some fool goes past you at 10 knots and it’s in your lap. Cook, boil water etc  in the cockpit under the spray hood.

Summary
Get a boat that suits the conditions prevailing where you sail most often.
Only have a cabin if you know you will use it.
How far and how often will you be towing?  It makes a difference.

If you want to sail in lots of differing conditions the “BayRaider “ is lots of different boats! 
It’s fast and fun unballasted but safe and secure with the tanks filled (which you can do while sailing, don’t forget.)
 It tows,  sails, rows and motors well. 
It’s self righting, self draining - and self tacking!
....and if you do bite off more than you can chew, weather wise, just drop the main and let the tanks fill up and she’ll get you and your  crew home safely.
The BayRaider Expedition, being closely modelled on the Br, is a little longer and heavier than the CBL and has a similar cabin but is almost as easy to man handle on shore and is infinitely superior in performance and sea keeping.  Not much else comes close.  This boat is just begging to be taken on some adventure or other.... (I have the ideas but the wrong boat!)... and will soon live up to its name, I’m sure.

And before anyone asks, No, I am not on commission.....

[John Davis]

Hi Jonathan,
I am the lucky owner of a BR20 and used to sail a family Shrimper (gaff rig) regularly in Poole harbour.  You've received lots of good advice already but I think key amongst it all should be to trial sail both, as they feel very different.  I'll just make a few comments re. sailing the two but feel free to ask if you have more specific questions.
The BR sails more like a dinghy, despite the keelboat like turning circle, whereas the Shrimper is much heavier and feels like a pocket cruiser.  For me this translates into different expectations of sailing style too.  Whereas I am quite happy to let the BR tip to virtual capsize, when having some fun, I never felt that way with the Shrimper and we had a couple of pigs of iron in the bilges to stiffen her up.  Compared to others of her ilk the Shrimper is quite fine lined.
I  like to beach the boats for lunch stops.  With the shrimper you can not easily manhandle off a beach if you allow her to dry out a tad too much, because she has a keel and will settle over and become immovable; not to mention her weight.  By contrast the BR, with its flat bottom, can be lifted by the bow and encouraged to float off on her aft quarters. 
The mizzen is a great sail, adding to the versatility of the BR.
Oh one thing on the less delicate matters.  The girls in my family complain bitterly about the heads arrangements on small boats.  If you like the Shrimper but the privacy of the heads are an issue for you, take a look at the Golant gaffer, also designed by Roger Dongray, It has a private head in the forepeak and is thereby a bit more of a pocket cruiser than the Shrimper.
Cheers,
John

[Tony]

Oh one thing on the less delicate matters.  The girls in my family complain bitterly about the heads arrangements on small boats. 

@John Davis
Lady  sailors of my acquaintance prefer to use the Whiz Freedom ( http://www.whizproducts.co.uk ) * rather than go through the oilskins  pants-dropping  routine while crouched over a chemical toilet in a seaway. It can be used with one hand while standing and holding on to the boat with the other hand - and you don't get splashed with Bloo Loo!

Less Lady-like sailors of my acquaintance (daughters) use it to pee down the centreboard slot like a bloke.
No fuss, no bother and no discomfort. 

*  NB Other products are available but this one, I'm told, is easily usable single handed without any disrobing.

[Jonathan Cuff]

Many thanks for all your detailed replies. I really appreciate the time you have put in. We actually managed to have a go in a regular Shrimper courtesy of Mylor Boat Hire. It was kind of how we thought it would be- solid, stable with what for us would be a practical little cabin but I do kind of think that for pottering around it would be fun but for long term use I might get a little fed up with everything overtaking me! Also the outboard arrangement is not good.

So the Bayraider Expedition is looking good!

In any event going to go to SBS to make our minds up.

Cheers Jonathan

[Jonathan Stuart]

Jonathan,

Sounds like a good plan. FYI, I am taking my BRe to Mylor in late August and you are welcome to look over it and have a sail if you want and are in the area.

[Jonathan Cuff]

Many thanks Jonathan. I won't be in the UK in August but the offer is much appreciated.

[Jonathan Cuff]

Dear All

We've taken the plunge and ordered an Expedition. Many thanks again for all the advice which really helped us make our decision. We're going for tan sails as we want the traditional look and was wondering if any other owners had done the same, and if so what colour dodger and mainsail cover they went for. We've opted for a white hull as figure it will weather better than a coloured one. Also went for the new Mk 2 jib system which is now being offered. Decided to have a porta potti instead of full marine head (which Matt said could be fitted) just to keep things simple.
If any Expedition owners have any advice on options they didn't really need or perhaps others they wished they opted for I'd really appreciate any input.
Kind regards
Jonathan