Storm 15 - Lug, CB - Ballast?

[Trevor Burdon]

I'm finding that my Storm 15 is much less stable than I expected when sailing single-handed. Though in hindsight its not surprising given how light she is. Having only sailed on smooth water to date, I'm concerned how I'd fair on a choppy sea. Would I just be tossed about like a cork?

What is others experience please and have you taken any measures to change it? Given the small size of the centreboard, I suspect changing that all to steel would not be enough.

Any thoughts gratefully received. Regards Trevor

[Tony]

Hi, Trevor.
Yes, Storms and other Faering-type small boats are a bit tippy but famously cope well with choppy water. Being caught with full sail in unpredictably gusty winds, however,  is a different matter!
I sail a lug and mizzen CBL (sort of a Storm 19 with a lid on) and she copes better with coastal sailing when I have 90 kg of lead sheeting bolted to her bilges. It puts her deeper in the water, makes her stiffer in gusts and helps her carry her way into the waves rather than being slapped around.
Downside is that trundling her around hotel carparks is more difficult (I usually remove the lead and shove it under the car seats if going any distance – which is a pain.) and you lose a bit of acceleration in light winds. (I'm presently experimenting with pump in/pump out water ballast but retro-fits are not easy)
With the S15 a few kilos of lead low down might work wonders at the cost of some performance.  The centreboard is theoretically the best place for it but the case might need beefing up to cope with a profiled, lead-filled board. Simpler to experiment with the lead flashing in the bilges.
Let us know how you get on!

[Michael Rogers]

Ahoy, Trevor

Your post had me (almost) nostalgic for my Storm Petrel sailing days. I concur with Tony's comments - Faering types are remarkably seaworthy in many respects, and you will be pleasantly surprised how well she more than copes with a seaway. So don't worry about waves. However, in general terms tippy is the word, especially when single-handed, which makes sailing an energetic business.

I water-ballasted, H2O (can't do that properly on my keyboard) being heavy stuff. I used square but squashy 15 litre camping water containers (could be flattened a bit when empty), which I filled after launching, using a watering can with about a foot of hose on the spout (for efficient 'aiming': NB dipping non-rigid containers under the surface does NOT work! - perversely virtually no water goes in). I used either two or four depending on wind strength etc, stashed either side of the daggerboard case. Four would be 60 litres = 60 kilos about as low in the hull as one could get them. It made a LOT of difference, and I wasn't aware of much loss of performance, which in any case was fully compensated for by sailing with less frantic leaping to and fro to keep the lee rail out of the drink. I don't know whether that would be enough for your S15? - which is that bit bigger than my SP14 was.

The trouble with lead is that you have to lug it around, as Tony indicates. The advantage of water is that you don't need to take it with you, it's already there, and then you leave it behind when you come home. Why not have a go with water to give you an idea of what sort of weight and where would help. There are lots of different shapes and sizes of water containers. Then you'd know about how much lead you would need to nick off a roof somewhere (only joking, I'm sure you're a law abiding citizen). Lead would go that bit lower still in the boat, but whether significantly I don't know.

Hope that helps. Yes, do let us know how you get on!

Michael

[Clem Freeman]

Trevor,

I find its the gusts that catch you out. On my S17 just letting the main out isn't enough with the mizzen and club jib still being enough to tip you over before you can let them out. I'm toying with getting a steel centerplate made up.

[Trevor Burdon]

Thanks for all the good feedback.

I’m going to have to frequent this site if I’m to keep up. An advance apology, however, I think my modifications are going to take a while!

Thanks for the reassurance Tony, but like you I’m going to have to stiffen her up for all the reasons you mentioned.

I do like the idea of experimenting with water, finding out how much ballast I need, and then deciding whether to make up some containers/tanks or lead holders. I think the density of lead is  ~11 times that of water, which means placing ~6l of lead instead of 60l of water like Michael is doing, would keep the cockpit much clearer. How did you fix those squishy containers in the boat, Michael? Your Storm Petrel experience is most relevant because of the boat’s similarities. BTW did your SP have a steel centre board? Did Swallow Boats ever comment on how to address these handling issues.

I’m starting to think that tray-like containers on the floor might be the go. If they had a hatch then I could fill them with a bailer and empty them with a cup on the water! And siphon on shore. I guess two, long thin tanks with baffles would be best. For 30l of water I have 30 x 10 x 10 x 10 cm3, or 30cm wide by 10 cm deep by 100 cm long. I could put in a stepped floor but that would cover my beautiful huon pine floor boards. :-{  On the other hand, for 30 kg of lead though I’d only need 3l. A permutation might be logs along the interior bottom edges of the CB case, which is about 60cm long. Maybe 5cm wide by 10 cm deep by 60 cm long then?

Anyway it’s clear I do need to experiment so will be looking out for containers and lead from now on ..

Ah .. the Storm 17. You know Clem I would build that one a second time round. For almost no extra work I’d have more space and freeboard and greater safety. My S15 only has the one sail, and the weight I worry about as the boat crosses a swell is the yard and mast. I should point out that these are already as light they could possibly be – the result of my enthusiastic use of a new electric plane!

Trevor

P.S. As an after-thought I’m guessing the addition of extra weight affects reserve buoyancy. Has anyone looked into this for the SP or S15? A recommendation from Matt N or one of his architects would be good …

[Trevor Burdon]

Clem,

I see you've covered this ground before on a S17 thread on Home-Builder's. Did you ever retrieve those photos of a ballast box on the S17 build CD? If so I'd like to se them.

Trevor

[Michael Rogers]

Hallo again, Trevor

I should perhaps explain that the water containers I used were not completely squishy: sort of semi-rigid, I suppose, which meant they could be squashed flattish when empty, but when full of water were cuboid and  reasonably 'stiff'. I didn't actually sail excitingly enough on my own (had some really hairy moments when I had someone with me, both as ballast and moral support) to need to strap them down. I believe the SP is slimmer than the S15, and the space either side of the DB case was probably narrow enough so that the water ballast stayed put rather conveniently.

If the S15 is anything like as seaworthy as the SP, I'm certain you'll come not to be bothered by swell. My SP swooped over/through the waves in a really exhilarating way, and the only significant water I shipped was over the lee rail because of heeling.

Keep us posted, and enjoy your experimenting!

Michael

[Chris Corbett]

I was surprised at the relative tenderness of my Storm 15, having primarily sailed heavier boats, but I have not yet encountered anything she could not handle.

I would hesitate to put in a steel centerboard. If the boat flipped and the board came swinging down, it might very well rip apart the centerboard case, which is not really built to withstand such force. I would at least try water ballast before doing swapping out the board.

Chris

[Tony]

When capsize testing  “Four Sisters” (er...not entirely deliberately!) both bilge boards pivoted back into the hull and needed a determined effort to get one out far enough to use as a lever to get her upright again – which she did  quite easily.  Had they been heavily ballasted or steel plates it would have taken more than just teeth and toenails to pull up!
If you are using such a board, a locking pin to hold it fixed firmly down AND a strongly made case should both be  priorities........only  you have to remember it's a good  idea to unlock it when beaching !

[steve jones]

Hello all,
 On the subject of water ballast, in 2006 I first test sailed a S17 with view to kit building, it was the GRP version , but luckily for me Gareth Rowlands was out sailing his Swallow built S17( the first one), he very kindly let me have a test sail, and I was able to compare boats. I found the wooden S17 more tender, and for single handed sailing would require ballast. Again a bit of luck, on the 'stocks ' as it were back, in the then shed at Gwbert Matt. was experimenting with water ballast on a S17. I subsequently built the S17 and added the water ballast at a later stage since it wasn't in the plans.
 It was a great success , I have since sold the boat and built a BR17 which fits my requirements even better.

Steve  BR17  Nona Me

[garethrow]

I had forgotten about that Steve - what a long memory you have!

I can still be found trundling around the Teifi Estuary in the same Storm 17 most summer week ends and am always happy to have company if anyone would like to try a wooden Storm 17?

Re tenderness of the Storms, I believe there is quite a bit of difference  between the 15' and 17' versions. I have sailed in quite rough and windy conditions without getting into too much trouble. But as with most boats, its as much about how you sail them as the boat itself. They are essentially big dinghies with a bit more comfort and a lot drier. Whilst putting in ballast will obviously make them less tippy, so will reducing sail area - which is the big advantage of the 17' = ketch rig.

On the subject of tabernacles coming loose ..... The S17 was the 1st true production model to come out of Swallow Boats. It is designed with a through deck mast - a feature that I was not keen on, having had shroud failure on 2 or 3 occasions over 40 years of sailing. On each of these unhappy occasions it has been embarrassing / inconvenient, but not damaging - due to sailing a deck stepped mast dinghy (Scorpion). Matt duly obliged and modified my S17 to be deck stepped as well. At the time we talked a lot about a tabernacle design - trying to think of a weak  / cheap failure point in the event of shroud failure. (bearing in mind the BR hadn't hit the drawing table at that time). In the event, the Storm mast is so light that we concluded that a tabernacle was over the top - and I don't miss it, just having a small socket for the foot of the mast.  So when a shroud fails - the whole rig just flops over the side (and yes this has happened - a result of poor knots on my behalf, and it was at a very inconvenient time!)

Regards

Gareth Rowlands

[Clem Freeman]

Clem,

I see you've covered this ground before on a S17 thread on Home-Builder's. Did you ever retrieve those photos of a ballast box on the S17 build CD? If so I'd like to se them.

Trevor

Sorry for the delay Trevor,  I'll have a look and upload what I' be got.

Clem

[Clem Freeman]

Trevor,

I've put the pictures in the gallery under boats/storm17.

Clem

[Lyn Bodger]

A few observations on the Storm 15 issues raised in this thread.

I too have resorted to water ballast contained within a couple of cube shaped collapsible water carriers, originally intended for use when camping.

I find them useful in improving the fore and aft trim as well as transverse stability when sailing single handed.  I have also installed a tiller extension to enable me to get further forward in the boat and improve her trim.

Being a fairly substantial citizen I do have to be careful moving about in the boat, especially when sailing in light airs with little weight of wind in the sails, life becomes easier in this respect when the wind pipes up a bit.  Should it pipe up too much reefing can only be carried out safely on shore, so it’s best to err strongly on the side of caution if considering sailing in relatively exposed waters.

Having said all of this, I have been out in some reasonable sized waves, with a second hand on board, and found the boat handled the conditions quite well.
 

[Trevor Burdon]

Lyn, thanks for your thoughts. Its good to know there's an S15 member on the line.

As you know I'm looking for ways to add some removable ballast roughly the weight of one person. I'm ~ 85kg myself. from your experience would you aim for a maximum of 60/70/80kg?
 
My initial ideas are:
1. Logs along edges of floorboards, or
2. Sheets vertical along sides of CB case, or
3. Sheets laid over floorboards

Any of these could be fixed in place using CB case support fittings – after adding another rear one.

It would be a pity to cover up my lovely huon floorboards, so I’m looking at incrementally adding the ballast so I’d have 40/80 or perhaps 30/60kg. I tend to agree that beefing up the CB itself is not the way to go.

See
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zeo8oi6ioi1a45a/S15BallastIdeas.jpg

Trevor