Swallow Yachts Forum > Sailing and Events

Events - READ THIS FIRST

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Jonathan Stuart:
This area of the forum is for users to post topics about going sailing and related events. In addition to posts about rallies, events and boat shows, etc, this is the place to announce, for example, where you're going sailing this weekend and invite others to join you.

By suggesting or joining an event arranged through this website you agree, without exception, to the spirit and terms detailed in this post in addition to the website's terms (see http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=940) which you have already agreed to by using this website and forum.

Approach and Responsibilities

Any sailing organised via this forum or website, or run under the website's name, is done in the following spirit: "While we may sail with company, we always sail alone and each captain is responsible for their actions, their boat and any crew".

That does not absolve others from all responsibilities to you (and vice versa) - we all rightly have a duty not to inflict damage on others and in some circumstances we may have a duty of care, and an individual may be negligent if those duties are breached.

But those attending, organising, coordinating or contributing to events agree that, unless specified otherwise in writing:

* organisers and other participants do not take on a greater responsibility than if, for example, you both independently and coincidentally sailed together at the same location; and
* organisers do not take on a greater level of responsibility than any other participant; and
* the organisation will not be of a level to make up for any deficiencies in an individual's training, equipment or preparation; and
* organisers will not be performing assessments of the risks you (individually or as a group) may face when attending the event.
Participants may wish to consider whether a "buddy system" would be useful - this will depend on the location and nature of the sailing. Boats can be paired such that each boat "looks out" for the other - they don't need to sail together but would attempt to remain in contact such that one can raise the alarm if they have concerns about the other boat's safety.  This sharing of responsibilities can improve safety and is in the wider spirit of how events are run. However, if such a system is adopted all participants must consider that they are taking on a responsibility and should make reasonable endeavours to maintain knowledge of the other boat's whereabouts - a failure to do this is more dangerous than if the buddy system isn't used at all.

Finally, and regardless of whether the buddy system is used, where there is a concern that another boat may be in trouble or need assistance you must call the emergency services without delay - they would prefer a false alarm than a delayed start to a real rescue.

Organisers

People who invite others to sail with them or suggest a "rally" are encouraged to provide information about the proposed sailing and sailing venue, e.g. launch location & facilities, costs, tides (where relevant), local hazards, etc. While individuals are responsible for performing their own research and ensuring the event is suitable given their experience, boat and equipment, etc, (see below) organisers should endeavour to help attendees given that, for example, you my know the local area better than them.

Participants

Participants are wholly responsible and liable for their conduct and all costs incurred on any events they join. Make sure you are suitably experienced, equipped, informed and insured (insurance is checked at some slipways). That's up to you and, unless organisers explicitly specify otherwise, not the responsibility of event organisers or those discussing events on this forum. If you're uncomfortable with that then please discuss this with the organiser and if in doubt don't join the event.

But, while individual responsibility has primacy, everyone attending is encouraged to support other boats and ensure they remain vigilant about other boats' capabilities, needs and locations. Supporting each other should help ensure events are safe and successful. Furthermore, while it is almost inevitable that an event will have an organiser, don't leave everything to them. If you know some useful information about the sailing venue that has not been mentioned by the organiser then please share it - the organiser is no more responsible than any other participant to share details of hazards, etc, will fellow sailors.

Negligence & Liability

What follows are just my opinions. I believe them to be accurate for English and Welsh law at the time of writing and they are given in good faith but I am no legal expert.

We should all endeavour to avoid claims of negligence against us and while organisers are potentially more liable to such claims they should not be anxious about this. It's worth reiterating what was said above: "we all rightly have a duty not to inflict damage on others and in some circumstances we may have a duty of care, and an individual may be negligent if those duties are breached" (the emphasis is mine). That's a general truth and not specific to sailing events or those organising them; so we all need to ensure our actions (or lack of) don't cause us to be negligent, both in day-to-day life and in our sailing. But the law isn't unreasonable - if you're not negligent then you should have nothing to worry about! Furthermore, by mandating individual responsibility in our Terms (see above) this should further protect organisers.

The RYA has published a very useful document that discusses this and it's worth reading the relevant sections if you are concerned about liability. Click here to read the RYA document.

This document is reassuring. In particular, the law and courts are more pragmatic and accepting of the natural risks associated with sports like sailing than many may believe. A clear message is that a common sense approach where the organiser doesn't recklessly lead others in to danger is the best approach.

What certainly can affect an organiser's liability are the planned activities and the level of "hands-on" organisation and management they undertake, i.e. are they creating or heightening a duty of care in addition to the duty (that we all have) not to inflict damage on others?

A certain level of organisation, e.g. thinking about and informing participants about potential risks and hazards specific to that event or area (as recommended above), should help minimise potential claims of negligence. That's not to say one becomes negligent by not providing such information, but supporting participants in this way will help events run smoothly and can only help organisers avoid claims of negligence if, say, a participant has an accident.

However, if organisers are more "hands-on" (to quote the document) in organising activities, or if those activities naturally bring additional dangers, e.g. organised racing, training or leading (not just sailing alongside) less experienced skippers, then there is more scope for the organiser to become negligent. That shouldn't sound alarming - it's common sense that if you do more then there's more to go wrong and organisers just need to ensure these additional activities are organised and risks properly considered bearing in mind the duty of care, etc. Again, use common sense.

Here are two extracts from the RYA document that are relevant to us and cover the pertinent  points:

"Where a rally is organised by simply issuing a series of meeting places with dates and times, it is unlikely that any legal liability would be incurred by the organiser if an accident occurs either while a boat is on passage to or from a meeting place, or is at the event itself. Where on-the-water activities are organised at an event, the organiser may be liable if they are found to have organised the activities negligently."

"Many clubs without premises or valuable equipment simply exist as a point of contact for members who then organise their own social or cruising events. Thus a small class or single make owners association may organise a list of members, publish a news sheet, organise pre-arranged “meets” and arrange regular shore-based social events. However, unless any of the events involve “hands-on” management, the potential for legal liability for injury is remote, often rendering the cost of insurance unjustifiable."

In summary, while many think we live in a litigious society, where common sense was an early casualty, I think if events are organised with sensible care then organisers can enjoy their events and not be anxious about potential claims of negligence.

EDWIN DAVIES:
Though agreeing with the conditions as stated in "Read this first" I would hope that someone would take the trouble to point out known, less obvious, dangers of the event in question. Such as the shallow areas of Lake Bala. We all have a responsibility for each other at the end of the day. I would also hope that someone would count us all out and count us all in again to ensure no one is lost at sea and goes unreported.

Michael Rogers:
Hallo again, Edwin. Good to see you at Bala.

I'm trying to be careful not stir a wasps' nest/open a can of worms here, but - whether we like it or not - the L-word can lurk (whispers - 'liability') these days unless a lightness of touch is maintained: the latter being something I think our association (note the lower case) can be proud of so far.

I belong to the Junk Rig Association, where issues were raised about 'what would happen if.....' in the context of the JRA organising what had previously been informal jollies similar to ours (some naughty types were actually provoking trouble). A medium-sized furore ensued, leading to changes in the Constitution (note the capital), virtually preventing any such gatherings happening under JRA auspices, which was Ridiculous (ditto). Actually, common sense prevailed in the setting up of an overlapping informal association (lower case) for getting informal jollies organised, in which nobody bothered about things like the L-word.

He will correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense that Jonathan is implying a light touch in all of this as far as we're concerned. And so say all of us, presumably. However, I quite agree that looking out for each other should always be an unspoken but TOP priority, wherever we gather.

Michael

Jonathan Stuart:
I agree with what both of you have said and in particular  this is all about keeping things sensible and simple with regard to liability.

Having read Edwin's points I thought about suggesting we update the terms to say that organisers will make some attempt (exact words to be defined) to provide relevant information, etc, to attendees. But that creates some liability, i.e. if the organiser doesn't do this and an incident occurs then they are potentially liable. Do we want that? This seems a binary point and organisers either have some liability or they don't.

Then I thought I could add some words to the terms to say organisers don't have liability (as at present) but are "encouraged" to provide relevant information for events. But something that doesn't add to the terms doesn't (in my opinion) have any place in the terms. But it would be appropriate in this "Read this first" post. i.e. I add to what I wrote above and make it clear that the terms have primacy but organisers are encouraged to provide useful and relevant information and all participants are encouraged to look out for their fellow boats, etc. I will edit the first post in this thread to add these words. Please let me know whether you think that addresses the problem without creating any new ones.

EDWIN DAVIES:
That looks better to me, I would suggest that the third more important paragraph could be highlighted in some way. capital letters or larger font perhaps. Thank you Jonathan for taking on this subject, it is an important one. Perhaps a mention of individual boat insurance would be appropriate?This is always prominent in vintage car rallies we attend!

As an aside, when I joined the local (inland) sailing club they were reluctant to let me join with such a big boat! A Storm 17 was outside there experience, only after I told them I had carried out a risk assessment on solo launch and recovery were their fears allayed. Another club refused point blank, though this could have been sorted out if I had been an electrician! New clubhouse to wire I suppose. such is life

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